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Burroughs vs Dake - Taylor 165 Folkstyle

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Fair enough, and let me say I agree that's probably not true. However, it's not so absurd when you look at the level JB had reached by that time. He was already the best in the world, when he was winning his NCAA title in 2011.

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Man, some of you guys have short memories, or are just plain crazy. As good as Dake and Taylor are, Burroughs would be a very, very strong favorite over either in 2010-11.

 

Given that, honestly I don't think there's any folkstyle wrestler in U.S. history who would have been favored to beat Burroughs as of the end of the 2010-11 season. Not one. Competitive, yes, toss-up, maybe, but not favored.

 

 

WOW. Talk about short memory!

 

Yes, Burroughs would probably be favored over Dake or Taylor in 2010 (although, Dake may have been a favorite given their prior acomplishments...but generally I think Burroughs would have been most everyone's pick). BUT, a "very, very strong" favorite"? Come on, be careful how you use words. For comparison: David Taylor is a very, very strong favorite over some like, say, Cody Yohn. The gap there is not the same as between Burroughs (Senior Year) and Dake/Taylor now - not by a long shot. Nobody is that strong a favorite over Dake or Taylor.

 

Secondly, no folkstyle wrestler in US history would have been favored to beat Senior year Burroughs, really?!!!??

 

I'm guessing arguably a 'few' might be. If we're just talking about skill level as of their senior years. If you consider how good Burroughs was as a senior, especially on his feet (most scoring between elite wrestlers is done in neutral) then that statement isn't as crazy as it sounds. The average, elite world class wrestler would tell you that their post-college, world elite version of themself would beat beat the college version in any style. As a matter of fact, I've talked to quite a few of these individuals and not one has said anything contrary to that.

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You are cherry picking his worst match against their only common opponent, without mentioning the other times that Burroughs thrashed Caldwell, including in the NCAA finals. Sr. year Burroughs would beat both Taylor and Dake. He would major Taylor and come close to majoring Dake. That bad match he had against Caldwell at Big 12's was an anomaly.

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Burroughs didn't wrestle in the Big 12 finals in 2010. He was injured.

 

Burroughs beat Caldwell 2-1 in the Big 12 finals in 2011. He also beat Caldwell 7-3 earlier that year, and 11-3 in the NCAA finals. He was never in danger of being scored on.

 

That same year, Burroughs also beat a healthy Howe 10-7, and then beat him in the WTT finals in two straight matches. It is not easy to beat a guy as talented as Howe three times. But Burroughs did it. It's also worth noting that Howe is undefeated against Dake and Taylor, and I think he'll beat them again this spring if they face off in freestyle.

 

This doesn't even include the fact that in 2011, Burroughs beat 2x world champ Tsargush and then multi-time world medalist Goudarzi. Tsargush and Goudarzi would certainly beat both Dake and Taylor, as well.

 

I don't get how comparing Burroughs's closest match with Caldwell somehow trumps everything else. Burroughs is one of the very few NCAA wrestlers who was good enough at folk to crossover and immediately win a world freestyle title. The only other guys who did that (who I can think of off-hand) are Uetake, John Smith, and Stephen Neal. Burroughs in 2011 was a clear notch or two above even most Hodge winners. Not even Sanderson was good enough to crossover and immediately win a world title.

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Man, some of you guys have short memories, or are just plain crazy. As good as Dake and Taylor are, Burroughs would be a very, very strong favorite over either in 2010-11.

 

Given that, honestly I don't think there's any folkstyle wrestler in U.S. history who would have been favored to beat Burroughs as of the end of the 2010-11 season. Not one. Competitive, yes, toss-up, maybe, but not favored.

 

 

WOW. Talk about short memory!

 

Yes, Burroughs would probably be favored over Dake or Taylor in 2010 (although, Dake may have been a favorite given their prior acomplishments...but generally I think Burroughs would have been most everyone's pick). BUT, a "very, very strong" favorite"? Come on, be careful how you use words. For comparison: David Taylor is a very, very strong favorite over some like, say, Cody Yohn. The gap there is not the same as between Burroughs (Senior Year) and Dake/Taylor now - not by a long shot. Nobody is that strong a favorite over Dake or Taylor.

 

Secondly, no folkstyle wrestler in US history would have been favored to beat Senior year Burroughs, really?!!!??

 

Beat me to it.

 

Lol.

 

It is really amazing how quickly people forget how easy Cael Sanderson made D1 wrestling look. :lol:

 

And yet he got hammered by international competition. The difference Burroughs and the collegiate wrestler is Burroughs, shoots like inrernational wrestlers , all about setup, economy of motion and clean finish, this is why the transition was so easy. You notice Burroughs didn't get into scramble positions, scrambling is the result of poor offense finishes, in the international game technique is such that a deep shot is a done deal.

 

And Burroughs blast double is epitome of that. Tsargush couldn't defend it, gadzouri either, but you think DT or Dake could, ps, Burroughs 2010 strong favorite, today as evidenced by summer results, likely either gets skunkeded

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Man, some of you guys have short memories, or are just plain crazy. As good as Dake and Taylor are, Burroughs would be a very, very strong favorite over either in 2010-11.

 

Given that, honestly I don't think there's any folkstyle wrestler in U.S. history who would have been favored to beat Burroughs as of the end of the 2010-11 season. Not one. Competitive, yes, toss-up, maybe, but not favored.

 

 

WOW. Talk about short memory!

 

Yes, Burroughs would probably be favored over Dake or Taylor in 2010 (although, Dake may have been a favorite given their prior acomplishments...but generally I think Burroughs would have been most everyone's pick). BUT, a "very, very strong" favorite"? Come on, be careful how you use words. For comparison: David Taylor is a very, very strong favorite over some like, say, Cody Yohn. The gap there is not the same as between Burroughs (Senior Year) and Dake/Taylor now - not by a long shot. Nobody is that strong a favorite over Dake or Taylor.

 

Secondly, no folkstyle wrestler in US history would have been favored to beat Senior year Burroughs, really?!!!??

 

1. Yes, a very strong favorite. As I said, by end of 2012, Burroughs was good enough to beat the best wrestlers on the planet in neutral -- and he did so. Can you say the same about Dake/Taylor? Burroughs still hasn't lost to a-n-y-o-n-e since his sophomore year, at any level. That doesn't mean he'd blow out Taylor/Dake, but their odds of winning are slim. If the best wrestlers in the world couldn't beat him in neutral, how could you say Taylor/Dake are anything but big underdogs?

 

2. Yes, I can think of no one at his weight in U.S. history who, objectively, should be favored. If you disagree, then who? Someone said Sanderson but he's 2-3 weights up. Who else at his weight was good enough at graduation to be the best in the world using only folkstyle skills? And not just the best in the world -- but better than the guy who many were comparing to Saitiev. Folks who don't venture far beyond the college board don't realize how floored the international wrestling community was by what Burroughs did to Tsargush and Gourdarzi, without a lick of par terre or exposure technique. A reasonable case can be made for Schultz and Monday as being on Burroughs' level as college seniors, but even those guys needed a year before they could win a world title. Lee Kemp is comparable. If anyone has a basis to argue that someone was better as a senior in folk than Burroughs was, I'm all ears. Otherwise you're just ignoring the evidence.

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Doesn't Howe still have a year of eligibility? And don't many feel he'd beat both Dake or Taylor? And Burroughs handled him multiple times, correct?

Burroughs scores on his feet vs wrestlers far superior to Dake or Taylor. Keep in mind he was dominating on the international scene right out of college.

 

Sorry, but I must go slightly off topic here. Does anyone know what weight Howe will wrestle next year? I hope he ends up at 184, or wherever Ed Ruth is! If that doesn't happen, I'd like to see him against DT.

 

Howe will be at 174 next year. OU will have Travis Rutt manning 184. Does anyone see a reason for Ruth

to move to 197?

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Man, some of you guys have short memories, or are just plain crazy. As good as Dake and Taylor are, Burroughs would be a very, very strong favorite over either in 2010-11.

 

Given that, honestly I don't think there's any folkstyle wrestler in U.S. history who would have been favored to beat Burroughs as of the end of the 2010-11 season. Not one. Competitive, yes, toss-up, maybe, but not favored.

 

 

WOW. Talk about short memory!

 

Yes, Burroughs would probably be favored over Dake or Taylor in 2010 (although, Dake may have been a favorite given their prior acomplishments...but generally I think Burroughs would have been most everyone's pick). BUT, a "very, very strong" favorite"? Come on, be careful how you use words. For comparison: David Taylor is a very, very strong favorite over some like, say, Cody Yohn. The gap there is not the same as between Burroughs (Senior Year) and Dake/Taylor now - not by a long shot. Nobody is that strong a favorite over Dake or Taylor.

 

Secondly, no folkstyle wrestler in US history would have been favored to beat Senior year Burroughs, really?!!!??

 

1. Yes, a very strong favorite. As I said, by end of 2012, Burroughs was good enough to beat the best wrestlers on the planet in neutral -- and he did so. Can you say the same about Dake/Taylor? Burroughs still hasn't lost to a-n-y-o-n-e since his sophomore year, at any level. That doesn't mean he'd blow out Taylor/Dake, but their odds of winning are slim. If the best wrestlers in the world couldn't beat him in neutral, how could you say Taylor/Dake are anything but big underdogs?

 

2. Yes, I can think of no one at his weight in U.S. history who, objectively, should be favored. If you disagree, then who? Someone said Sanderson but he's 2-3 weights up. Who else at his weight was good enough at graduation to be the best in the world using only folkstyle skills? And not just the best in the world -- but better than the guy who many were comparing to Saitiev. Folks who don't venture far beyond the college board don't realize how floored the international wrestling community was by what Burroughs did to Tsargush and Gourdarzi, without a lick of par terre or exposure technique. A reasonable case can be made for Schultz and Monday as being on Burroughs' level as college seniors, but even those guys needed a year before they could win a world title. If anyone has a basis to argue that someone was better as a senior in folk than Burroughs was, I'm all ears. Otherwise you're just ignoring the evidence.

 

 

Gable, maybe.

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Man, some of you guys have short memories, or are just plain crazy. As good as Dake and Taylor are, Burroughs would be a very, very strong favorite over either in 2010-11.

 

Given that, honestly I don't think there's any folkstyle wrestler in U.S. history who would have been favored to beat Burroughs as of the end of the 2010-11 season. Not one. Competitive, yes, toss-up, maybe, but not favored.

 

 

WOW. Talk about short memory!

 

Yes, Burroughs would probably be favored over Dake or Taylor in 2010 (although, Dake may have been a favorite given their prior acomplishments...but generally I think Burroughs would have been most everyone's pick). BUT, a "very, very strong" favorite"? Come on, be careful how you use words. For comparison: David Taylor is a very, very strong favorite over some like, say, Cody Yohn. The gap there is not the same as between Burroughs (Senior Year) and Dake/Taylor now - not by a long shot. Nobody is that strong a favorite over Dake or Taylor.

 

Secondly, no folkstyle wrestler in US history would have been favored to beat Senior year Burroughs, really?!!!??

 

1. Yes, a very strong favorite. As I said, by end of 2012, Burroughs was good enough to beat the best wrestlers on the planet in neutral -- and he did so. Can you say the same about Dake/Taylor? Burroughs still hasn't lost to a-n-y-o-n-e since his sophomore year, at any level. That doesn't mean he'd blow out Taylor/Dake, but their odds of winning are slim. If the best wrestlers in the world couldn't beat him in neutral, how could you say Taylor/Dake are anything but big underdogs?

 

2. Yes, I can think of no one at his weight in U.S. history who, objectively, should be favored. If you disagree, then who? Someone said Sanderson but he's 2-3 weights up. Who else at his weight was good enough at graduation to be the best in the world using only folkstyle skills? And not just the best in the world -- but better than the guy who many were comparing to Saitiev. Folks who don't venture far beyond the college board don't realize how floored the international wrestling community was by what Burroughs did to Tsargush and Gourdarzi, without a lick of par terre or exposure technique. A reasonable case can be made for Schultz and Monday as being on Burroughs' level as college seniors, but even those guys needed a year before they could win a world title. If anyone has a basis to argue that someone was better as a senior in folk than Burroughs was, I'm all ears. Otherwise you're just ignoring the evidence.

 

1) I didn't say there were anything but underdogs...infact I did say they'd be underdogs. I disagreed with how strongly favored you have him. As great as he was in college (remember we are talking college here...I don't know why everyone keeps bringing up freestyle) so are Dake and Taylor. Burroughs favorite? Yes. Burroughs very, very strong favorite? No. I gave my reasoning as to why already...you seem to have ignored it.

 

2) First off, you changed everything you said when you added "at his weight"...you didn't say that before. Secondly, again you continue to bring up freestyle. We are discussing Burroughs his Senior year, and his folkstyle wrestling, vs. everyone else in NCAA history (or at/around his weight if you want to narrow it down now). That has nothing to do with his freestyle accomplishments. To use your examples, just because Schultz, Monday, or Cael didn't win World titles immediately after graduation while Burroughs did...that doesn't mean Burroughs should/would be a huge favorite in a folkstyle match while they were still in college.

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Secondly, no folkstyle wrestler in US history would have been favored to beat Senior year Burroughs, really?!!!??

 

Beat me to it.

 

Lol.

 

It is really amazing how quickly people forget how easy Cael Sanderson made D1 wrestling look. :lol:

 

And yet he got hammered by international competition. The difference Burroughs and the collegiate wrestler is Burroughs, shoots like inrernational wrestlers , all about setup, economy of motion and clean finish, this is why the transition was so easy. You notice Burroughs didn't get into scramble positions, scrambling is the result of poor offense finishes, in the international game technique is such that a deep shot is a done deal.

 

And Burroughs blast double is epitome of that. Tsargush couldn't defend it, gadzouri either, but you think DT or Dake could, ps, Burroughs 2010 strong favorite, today as evidenced by summer results, likely either gets skunkeded

 

Yes, Cael had some losses, but he didn't get hammered by international competition. And honestly, I think Cael would be favored over Burroughs using the standard put forth by Bac (and I'm not saying that is a bad standard).

 

Burroughs was VERY good by the end of his college career, and, of course a months after it when he won his fist world title. Remember though, Burroughs didn't prove he was world elite 'while in college', but he did prove it shortly after. I think Burroughs clearly had the talent, but he made a significant improvement in those months before the World championships. Just compare the matches of how Burroughs looked at the U.S. nationals that year and how he looked at the Worlds that year. I believe he was turned a few times that tournament (US nationals) off of bad shots and poor positioning.

 

I know it may seem ridiculous to say that Burroughs' world class level of wrestling displayed at Worlds can't necessarily be read back into his ncaa excellence eventhough it was merely months afterword, but sometimes this happens. Take Dake for example, I'm sure many of us have seen way better high school wrestlers than Dake in his senior year of HS. I know I have. But how many true freshman have we seen as good as Dake was after a few months in college? A few short months into college and Dake was ncaa champion level. That's extremely rare. Imo, the type of improvement Burroughs made between senior year ncaas and Worlds was similar to this. Remember, we are talking about rare athletes here, so we should expect rare and amazing things.

 

As far as Cael goes, he was arguably the best in the world his post junior/senior year. I'm talking about before Sajidov, who beat Cael at 2003 worlds, was the Russian representative. Cael made the world team, but didn't compete. Before the 2001 worlds Cael defeated the world silver medalist 3x. Shortly after graduation, Cael defeated the 2002 Russian world champion 7-2. Very similar to Burroughs, but Cael showed the ability to make the Worlds and beat a medalist while actually in college.

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I know it may seem ridiculous to say that Burroughs' world class level of wrestling displayed at Worlds can't necessarily be read back into his ncaa excellence eventhough it was merely months afterword, but sometimes this happens.

 

It doesn't seem realistic to think Burroughs was capable of an extreme improvement over the course of a few months, but chose to hold off on doing that until right after his college career ended.

 

As far as Cael goes, he was arguably the best in the world his post junior/senior year. I'm talking about before Sajidov, who beat Cael at 2003 worlds, was the Russian representative. Cael made the world team, but didn't compete. Before the 2001 worlds Cael defeated the world silver medalist 3x. Shortly after graduation, Cael defeated the 2002 Russian world champion 7-2. Very similar to Burroughs, but Cael showed the ability to make the Worlds and beat a medalist while actually in college.

 

People can speculate back and forth about who would have won which hypothetical matchup, but at the end of the day, only a handful of guys have ever won an NCAA title and world/Olympic title in the same year. As far as I know, it's limited to Uetake, John Smith, Neal, and Burroughs.

 

If you want to argue that a current college wrestler is better than Burroughs was his senior year, the odds are overwhelmingly against that being true.

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I know it may seem ridiculous to say that Burroughs' world class level of wrestling displayed at Worlds can't necessarily be read back into his ncaa excellence eventhough it was merely months afterword, but sometimes this happens.

 

It doesn't seem realistic to think Burroughs was capable of an extreme improvement over the course of a few months, but chose to hold off on doing that until right after his college career ended.

 

No, I believe Burroughs was extremely good as a senior in college. I'm just saying it isn't 100% obviously true that Burroughs was world champion level as a senior. He definitely had the potential to be, but I think he made a significant improvement in the months between U.S. nationals and the world championships.

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Doesn't Howe still have a year of eligibility? And don't many feel he'd beat both Dake or Taylor? And Burroughs handled him multiple times, correct?

Burroughs scores on his feet vs wrestlers far superior to Dake or Taylor. Keep in mind he was dominating on the international scene right out of college.

 

Sorry, but I must go slightly off topic here. Does anyone know what weight Howe will wrestle next year? I hope he ends up at 184, or wherever Ed Ruth is! If that doesn't happen, I'd like to see him against DT.

 

Howe will be at 174 next year. OU will have Travis Rutt manning 184. Does anyone see a reason for Ruth

to move to 197?

 

...no. He'll be at 184.

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I know it may seem ridiculous to say that Burroughs' world class level of wrestling displayed at Worlds can't necessarily be read back into his ncaa excellence eventhough it was merely months afterword, but sometimes this happens.

 

It doesn't seem realistic to think Burroughs was capable of an extreme improvement over the course of a few months, but chose to hold off on doing that until right after his college career ended.

 

As far as Cael goes, he was arguably the best in the world his post junior/senior year. I'm talking about before Sajidov, who beat Cael at 2003 worlds, was the Russian representative. Cael made the world team, but didn't compete. Before the 2001 worlds Cael defeated the world silver medalist 3x. Shortly after graduation, Cael defeated the 2002 Russian world champion 7-2. Very similar to Burroughs, but Cael showed the ability to make the Worlds and beat a medalist while actually in college.

 

People can speculate back and forth about who would have which hypothetical matchup, but at the end of the day, only a handful of guys have ever won an NCAA title and world/Olympic title in the same year. As far as I know, it's limited to Uetake, John Smith, Neal, and Burroughs.

 

True. In Uetake's and Smith's case, you don't have to insert any opinion whatsover when discussing their level while in college. It's an objective fact that Smith was a world champion and Uetake was an Olympic champion, (boy, I hate Okie State btw) Burroughs or Neal didn't prove they were capable of World championships while in college, they did months after when they could have become better wrestlers. I think that is true for Burroughs. Imo, the Burrroughs who wrestled at U.S. nationals definitely could have lost at worlds.

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True. In Uetake's and Smith's case, you don't have to insert any opinion whatsover when discussing their level while in college. It's an objective fact that Smith was a world champion and Uetake was an Olympic champion, (boy, I hate Okie State btw) Burroughs or Neal didn't prove they were capable of World championships while in college, they did months after when they could have become better wrestlers. I think that is true for Burroughs. Imo, the Burrroughs who wrestled at U.S. nationals definitely could have lost at worlds.

 

So in your mind, has Burroughs's astronomical improvement plateaued?

 

If so, when? Why do you think it plateaued? Do you think he could undergo another extreme improvement in the span of months if he wanted to?

 

If Burroughs's extreme improvement has continued to this day, why didn't Burroughs beat Howe, Tsargush, or Goudarzi by wider margins in 2012? Just for reference:

 

* At the 2012 OTTs, Burroughs beat Howe 4-2, 1-2, 1-0.

* Burroughs beat Tsargush 1-3, 1-0, 2-1 in 2011 and 2-1, 2-0 in 2012.

* Burroughs beat Goudarzi 3-2, 4-1 in 2011 and 1-0, 1-0 at the 2012 Olympics.

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) I didn't say there were anything but underdogs...infact I did say they'd be underdogs. I disagreed with how strongly favored you have him. As great as he was in college (remember we are talking college here...I don't know why everyone keeps bringing up freestyle) so are Dake and Taylor. Burroughs favorite? Yes. Burroughs very, very strong favorite? No. I gave my reasoning as to why already...you seem to have ignored it.

 

2) First off, you changed everything you said when you added "at his weight"...you didn't say that before. Secondly, again you continue to bring up freestyle. We are discussing Burroughs his Senior year, and his folkstyle wrestling, vs. everyone else in NCAA history (or at/around his weight if you want to narrow it down now). That has nothing to do with his freestyle accomplishments. To use your examples, just because Schultz, Monday, or Cael didn't win World titles immediately after graduation while Burroughs did...that doesn't mean Burroughs should/would be a huge favorite in a folkstyle match while they were still in college.

 

The reason that freestyle is being brought up is because it's a great way to measure how good someone was in college. If you're able to handle world class competition while in college, that says a lot about your wrestling ability. Especially if you're taking down guys left and right like John Smith or Cael. And elite folkstyle wrestling is won about 9/10 times in the neutral position. As I mentioned earlier, you'd be hard pressed to find even one former, elite world class wrestler who'd say their post-college, world class version wouldn't beat their college version of themself in any style. I haven't known one who has said otherwise, and they even say this realizing that their post-college version hadn't trained folkstyle for years.

 

 

Ex. Take post-collegiate Lee Fullhart.

 

As a senior, Cael only beat Lee Fullhart 5-3 in the midlands. At that point, Fullhart had been training freestyle seriously for about 2 years and he gave Cael a much better match than anyone did that season, and almost throughout his entire career. This was one Cael was at his best in folk. Lee Fullhart was able to take a match or two off Cael in freestyle as well. The chances of Fullhart having near the same success against Cael when he was in college was very, very slim if you ask me. Also, Fullhart also crushed all-time great 3x ncaa champ Greg Jones 7-1. Jones probably would have manhandled him in college. The point is, the wrestlers who are completely dedicated to the sport get VERY good after college. That’s what makes it so special when a collegiate wrestler is able to beat these guys when not even specializing in the international styles.

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Oh how we forget Howe so easily. Dake and Taylor are both fortunate this year that Howe is not competing.

 

I don't think anyone is forgetting Howe...I do however (no pun intended) think you seem to be grossly underestimating Dake and Taylor in folkstyle. I don't think either of them are "lucky" that Howe is taking another season off...Howe vs. either of these two is probably a toss-up but it is not as if Howe just walks with a title and these two fight for 2nd place if he was in this year. I don't even think he'd win it!

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True. In Uetake's and Smith's case, you don't have to insert any opinion whatsover when discussing their level while in college. It's an objective fact that Smith was a world champion and Uetake was an Olympic champion, (boy, I hate Okie State btw) Burroughs or Neal didn't prove they were capable of World championships while in college, they did months after when they could have become better wrestlers. I think that is true for Burroughs. Imo, the Burrroughs who wrestled at U.S. nationals definitely could have lost at worlds.

 

So in your mind, has Burroughs's astronomical improvement plateaued?

 

If so, when? Why do you think it plateaued? Do you think he could undergo another extreme improvement in the span of months if he wanted to?

 

If Burroughs's extreme improvement has continued to this day, why didn't Burroughs beat Howe, Tsargush, or Goudarzi by wider margins in 2012? Just for reference:

* At the 2012 OTTs, Burroughs beat Howe 4-2, 1-2, 1-0.

* Burroughs beat Tsargush 1-3, 1-0, 2-1 in 2011 and 2-1, 2-0 in 2012.

* Burroughs beat Goudarzi 3-2, 4-1 in 2011 and 1-0, 1-0 at the 2012 Olympics.

 

 

No, I don't believe Burroughs has plateaued. I think he's getting better. I don't think he'll undergo any more "extreme improvements". Usually, wrestlers seem to make their greatest improvement between their fist and second years collegiately and internationally.

 

I think you're misreading me. All I'm saying is that it isn't 100% clear that Burroughs was ready to win a world title as of March 2011. He was definitely extremely good, and he definitely had the talent imo. I just don't believe it's entirely accurate to use Burroughs success in freestyle 5 months after college to prove he was at the level of a world champion in college. Especially when using it in an argument against Cael. Cael proved he was world class in college, Burroughs did so after college when he had time to improve. In other words, I believe Cael was better by ncaas his senior year than Burroughs was.

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Oh how we forget Howe so easily. Dake and Taylor are both fortunate this year that Howe is not competing.

 

I don't think anyone is forgetting Howe...I do however (no pun intended) think you seem to be grossly underestimating Dake and Taylor in folkstyle. I don't think either of them are "lucky" that Howe is taking another season off...Howe vs. either of these two is probably a toss-up but it is not as if Howe just walks with a title and these two fight for 2nd place if he was in this year. I don't even think he'd win it!

 

Do you believe both Dake and Taylor are superior to Howe? If so, why?

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Oh how we forget Howe so easily. Dake and Taylor are both fortunate this year that Howe is not competing.

 

I don't think anyone is forgetting Howe...I do however (no pun intended) think you seem to be grossly underestimating Dake and Taylor in folkstyle. I don't think either of them are "lucky" that Howe is taking another season off...Howe vs. either of these two is probably a toss-up but it is not as if Howe just walks with a title and these two fight for 2nd place if he was in this year. I don't even think he'd win it!

 

Do you believe both Dake and Taylor are superior to Howe? If so, why?

 

You ask a lot of questions my friend!

 

And I dont exactly think that - I just stated that I don't think Howe is superior in folkstyle...certainly not to warrant saying "Dake and Taylor are both fortunate this year that Howe is not competing."

 

Somehow talks go from Dake being one of the best ever, to him being lucky that Howe (a 1 time champ and 2 time finalist) isn't competing. :roll:

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I think you're misreading me. All I'm saying is that it isn't 100% clear that Burroughs was ready to win a world title as of March 2011. He was definitely extremely good, and he definitely had the talent imo. I just don't believe it's entirely accurate to use Burroughs success in freestyle 5 months after college to prove he was at the level of a world champion in college. Especially when using it in an argument against Cael. Cael proved he was world class in college, Burroughs did so after college when he had time to improve. In other words, I believe Cael was better by ncaas his senior year than Burroughs was.

 

Well, who was better between Cael and Burroughs is beyond what I'm interested in thinking about.

 

As a separate matter, I happen to think it's significant that Burroughs won an NCAA title and world title in the same year. Countless American wrestlers have tried to do that, and only three have succeeded.

 

As to your theory that Burroughs had an extreme improvement right after the end of his college career, I think it's implausible. I don't think there's more I can say about it.

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I think you're misreading me. All I'm saying is that it isn't 100% clear that Burroughs was ready to win a world title as of March 2011. He was definitely extremely good, and he definitely had the talent imo. I just don't believe it's entirely accurate to use Burroughs success in freestyle 5 months after college to prove he was at the level of a world champion in college. Especially when using it in an argument against Cael. Cael proved he was world class in college, Burroughs did so after college when he had time to improve. In other words, I believe Cael was better by ncaas his senior year than Burroughs was.

 

Well, who was better between Cael and Burroughs is beyond what I'm interested in thinking about. I happen to think it's significant that Burroughs won an NCAA title and world title in the same year. You suggest that's not significant. I disagree. As to your theory that Burroughs had an extreme improvement right after the end of his college career, I think it's implausible. I don't think there's much for me to say about it.

 

 

I think it's very significant that Burroughs won an ncaa title and world title in the same year as well.

 

I don't believe Burroughs had an extreme (not the right word to use) improvement, I just believe he got better. Also, it's not rare for someone to improve significantly in a short amount of time. I'm saying that as an example, I'm not saying that was the case with Burroughs. I think he got noticeably better between U.S. nationals and worlds, that's all.

 

How do you explain how good Kyle Dake got between senior year and a few months into his true freshman season?

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