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Spencer Lee and Iowa

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12 minutes ago, headache said:

Lee has a mono-like illness. Nobody knows how long it lingers. 

Tom and Terry have had more success coaching at 125 and 133 than anyone eise in the country. You don't know what your talking about. 

I'm talking about Lee at #125, not 125 and 133 in general. 

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5 hours ago, Marcus Cisero said:

With all due respect, if the kid had mono and was still feeling the effects, why in the world would any coach still allow him to compete? A college wrestler not nearly 100% (if true) competing with other highly talented wrestlers could get him injured. Enough with the excuses already. Spencers competitors no longer fear him and are using their skills emboldened by confidence to beat him. Simply put, their arsenal is better than his, both defensively and offensively and its becoming more evident. Just one mans opinion.

I'm not buying this.  If it's not mono it's something mental going on, not that suddenly everyone just leapfrogged over him skill wise. That would really be something, for multiple guys that he's dominated his entire life to suddenly dramatically jump levels to the point that they are not only beating Spencer Lee, they are dominating him.  Maybe if it was one guy and he beat Spencer 6-5, I'd say ok that guy just jumped levels- but multiple guys dominating him?  Something's up. This is the guy who Gilman said was humbling him last summer, the guy who destroyed Tomasello like I've nobody else ever has, handled Suriano, and has pretty much dominated everyone worldwide his entire life.   Picc and Riveria are having great seasons without question and deserve credit- I'm just not buying into this current conventional wisdom that suddenly after years of dominating the national and world scene with dozens of videos of him wrestling, a secret strategy was revealed to the wrestling community,  that if it had only been known before, Spencer Lee was totally beatable all along.  Why wasn't this strategy figured out sooner? 

Speaking from having had mono- the effects are very "lingering".  Even four months or so after I had it, I'd suddenly feel a cold chill and feel like crap again, and my stamina was for crap.  Got it at the end of one season and didn't feel back to normal until the start of the following season.  I can't say for sure if that is the typical experience but in my experience it could definitely wipe out a season.  Or it could be the dreaded H.E.W., or just some sort of mental funk but the Spencer Lee of last season wouldn't be getting beaten like this by these guys, that I know.

 

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20 minutes ago, Cradle1 said:

I'm just not buying into this current conventional wisdom that suddenly after years of dominating the national and world scene with dozens of videos of him wrestling, a secret strategy was revealed to the wrestling community,  that if it had only been known before, Spencer Lee was totally beatable all along.  Why wasn't this strategy figured out sooner? 

I don't think it's conventional wisdom that Lee is fine and he just got figured out. I'd say it's a small minority who truly believes that. Something is clearly wrong, whether mental or physical or both, and I'm far from an Iowa homer. Picc and Rivera deserve full credit, of course. Picc in particular looks like a different wrestler this year.

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28 minutes ago, Cradle1 said:

I'm not buying this.  If it's not mono it's something mental going on, not that suddenly everyone just leapfrogged over him skill wise. That would really be something, for multiple guys that he's dominated his entire life to suddenly dramatically jump levels to the point that they are not only beating Spencer Lee, they are dominating him.  Maybe if it was one guy and he beat Spencer 6-5, I'd say ok that guy just jumped levels- but multiple guys dominating him?  Something's up. This is the guy who Gilman said was humbling him last summer, the guy who destroyed Tomasello like I've nobody else ever has, handled Suriano, and has pretty much dominated everyone worldwide his entire life.   Picc and Riveria are having great seasons without question and deserve credit- I'm just not buying into this current conventional wisdom that suddenly after years of dominating the national and world scene with dozens of videos of him wrestling, a secret strategy was revealed to the wrestling community,  that if it had only been known before, Spencer Lee was totally beatable all along.  Why wasn't this strategy figured out sooner? 

Speaking from having had mono- the effects are very "lingering".  Even four months or so after I had it, I'd suddenly feel a cold chill and feel like crap again, and my stamina was for crap.  Got it at the end of one season and didn't feel back to normal until the start of the following season.  I can't say for sure if that is the typical experience but in my experience it could definitely wipe out a season.  Or it could be the dreaded H.E.W., or just some sort of mental funk but the Spencer Lee of last season wouldn't be getting beaten like this by these guys, that I know.

 

Maybe he just realized there’s no point to wrestling. 

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Guys, it is not possible for Lee to get sick. That is crazy talk. It's way more believable that every 125lber has jumped levels and figured him out!

Look, just because pretty much everything goes right for psu, doesn't mean its the same for other schools. Lee looks different. I know from personal experience, you can have an illness leave you drained for months, especially when adding weight  cutting to the mix. I'm glad that a lot of you have seemingly never dealt with some sort of big adversity during your wrestling careers though. Doesnt mean everyones that lucky. 

Serious question, if Nolf or Nickal came out this year wrestling like Lee has, would you not question it?

Edited by Molsen

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1 hour ago, Cradle1 said:

I'm not buying this.  If it's not mono it's something mental going on, not that suddenly everyone just leapfrogged over him skill wise. That would really be something, for multiple guys that he's dominated his entire life to suddenly dramatically jump levels to the point that they are not only beating Spencer Lee, they are dominating him.  Maybe if it was one guy and he beat Spencer 6-5, I'd say ok that guy just jumped levels- but multiple guys dominating him?  Something's up. This is the guy who Gilman said was humbling him last summer, the guy who destroyed Tomasello like I've nobody else ever has, handled Suriano, and has pretty much dominated everyone worldwide his entire life.   Picc and Riveria are having great seasons without question and deserve credit- I'm just not buying into this current conventional wisdom that suddenly after years of dominating the national and world scene with dozens of videos of him wrestling, a secret strategy was revealed to the wrestling community,  that if it had only been known before, Spencer Lee was totally beatable all along.  Why wasn't this strategy figured out sooner? 

Speaking from having had mono- the effects are very "lingering".  Even four months or so after I had it, I'd suddenly feel a cold chill and feel like crap again, and my stamina was for crap.  Got it at the end of one season and didn't feel back to normal until the start of the following season.  I can't say for sure if that is the typical experience but in my experience it could definitely wipe out a season.  Or it could be the dreaded H.E.W., or just some sort of mental funk but the Spencer Lee of last season wouldn't be getting beaten like this by these guys, that I know.

 

This is a very typical experience for mono. It can sometimes leave you bed ridden for weeks/months. Often it can take a full year to fully recover. It's miserable for everyone involved. Wouldn't wish it on my enemies.

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4 minutes ago, Molsen said:

Guys, it is not possible for Lee to get sick. That is crazy talk. It's way more believable that every 125lber has jumped levels and figured him out!

Look, just because pretty much everything goes right for psu, doesn't mean its the same for other schools. Lee looks different. I know from personal experience, you can have an illness leave you drained for months, especially when adding weight  cutting to the mix. I'm glad that a lot of you have seemingly never dealt with some sort of big adversity during your wrestling careers though. Doesnt mean everyones that lucky. 

Serious question, if Nolf or Nickal came out this year wrestling like Lee has, would you not question it?

 

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas

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4 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

 

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas

How many times last year did Lee gas a minute into the second period. Seriously?

And I'll take that as a yes? You would assume they were sick or injured, not that everyone jumped levels.

Edited by Molsen

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5 minutes ago, Molsen said:

Guys, it is not possible for Lee to get sick. That is crazy talk. It's way more believable that every 125lber has jumped levels and figured him out!

Look, just because pretty much everything goes right for psu, doesn't mean its the same for other schools. Lee looks different. I know from personal experience, you can have an illness leave you drained for months, especially when adding weight  cutting to the mix. I'm glad that a lot of you have seemingly never dealt with some sort of big adversity during your wrestling careers though. Doesnt mean everyones that lucky. 

Serious question, if Nolf or Nickal came out this year wrestling like Lee has, would you not question it?

You're getting too worked up about it.  Most of them don't actually believe it, they just get joy out of watching something go badly for Iowa.

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2 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

You're getting too worked up about it.  Most of them don't actually believe it, they just get joy out of watching something go badly for Iowa.

You are probably right. Its just weird that they take so much joy in it. I could see people acting like that with Desanto, but from everything I've seen Lee is a good kid, good role model, and a hard worker. I get it, he went to Iowa, but seriously. 

Edited by Molsen

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2 minutes ago, Molsen said:

You are probably right. Its just weird that they take so much joy out of it. I could see people acting like that with Desanto, but from everything I've seen Lee is a good kid, good role model, and a hard worker. I get it, he went to Iowa, but seriously. 

 

I think you and Vak are both off the reservation on this. I don't think anybody wishes Spencer Lee ill, at least I don't. Rubbing Hawkeye noses, on the other hand, there may be some of that. For the record I LIKE the Hawkeyes and their fans, but I still tease them a bit. They richly deserve it :D

Edited by TobusRex

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1 minute ago, Molsen said:

You are probably right. Its just weird that they take so much joy in it. I could see people acting like that with Desanto, but from everything I've seen Lee is a good kid, good role model, and a hard worker. I get it, he went to Iowa, but seriously. 

It's because it's not about Spencer, it's about wanting to watch Iowa (and the Brands) fail.  It's why they keep pretending the Brands and Zalesky situations were the same and so Brands should be fired.

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Just now, VakAttack said:

It's because it's not about Spencer, it's about wanting to watch Iowa (and the Brands) fail.  It's why they keep pretending the Brands and Zalesky situations were the same and so Brands should be fired.

yeah, but as far as success on the mat, Zalesky was almost identical to Brands in coaching achievements. 3 NCAA titles for each and a slew of "also-ran" finishes. The only real difference between them that I can discern is Zalesky had the good fortune (or bad fortune, however you want to see it) of following directly after Gable and inheriting the talent already on the team. Brands came in after a few years of disappointing results, resurrected the program enough to win 3 titles (albeit with the "Metcalf" + class), and then proceeded to also-ran status.

 

Honestly, I don't see the Hawkeyes as any better now under Brands than they were under Zalesky in Zalesky's final years.

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9 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

It's because it's not about Spencer, it's about wanting to watch Iowa (and the Brands) fail.  It's why they keep pretending the Brands and Zalesky situations were the same and so Brands should be fired.

I guess my thing is, take shots, when shots are deserved, thats fine. But when something seems pretty obviously wrong, then making jokes about him getting mono again, and all the other stuff, is a bit ridiculous, especially in a year where even if Iowa performed at peak, they arent touching psu.

 

Edited by Molsen

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Just now, TobusRex said:

yeah, but as far as success on the mat, Zalesky was almost identical to Brands in coaching achievements. 3 NCAA titles for each and a slew of "also-ran" finishes. The only real difference between them that I can discern is Zalesky had the good fortune (or bad fortune, however you want to see it) of following directly after Gable and inheriting the talent already on the team. Brands came in after a few years of disappointing results, resurrected the program enough to win 3 titles (albeit with the "Metcalf" + class), and then proceeded to also-ran status.

 

Honestly, I don't see the Hawkeyes as any better now under Brands than they were under Zalesky in Zalesky's final years.

So other than the (unimportant?) fact that Zalesky took over the highest scoring team in NCAA history and had a bunch of talent returning, whereas Brands took over a pretty barren team, there's also the context they performed in (there was nothing like Penn State or even Ohio State, during Zalesky's tenure, and the team was just wrestling and recruiting much worse under Zalesky than they have under Brands

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Just now, Molsen said:

As for the coaching thing, well they conveniently forget that Cael probably has something to do with Iowa being lenient with Brands, and without the Brands hire, Iowa would have been down 3 championships.

You dont know if Zalesky could have turned things around or not.

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4 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

You dont know if Zalesky could have turned things around or not.

I've seen psu and other anti-iowa fans state Iowa only won because of the dual recruiting class. They dont get that without Brands.

What I do know, is Brands has had to deal with PSU and tOSU awakening.

Edited by Molsen

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1 minute ago, Molsen said:

I've seen psu and other anti-iowa fans state Iowa only won because of the dual recruiting class. They dont get that without Brands.

What I do know, is Brands has had to deal with PSU and tOSU awakening.

Kinda like Zalesky had to deal with OSU and Minnesota awakening

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2 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Kinda like Zalesky had to deal with OSU and Minnesota awakening

OSU is still there, PSU is on a different planet then those teams, so its not even a close comparison competitionwise. But im done with this argument because it never goes anywhere. 

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Just now, Molsen said:

OSU is still there, PSU is on a different planet then those teams, so its not even a close comparison competitionwise. But im done with this argument because it never goes anywhere. 

Point is Zalesky was never given an opportunity to right the ship. Brands has been. People think its unfair.

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When Gable was at Iowa, D1 wrestling was less technically sophisticated. (Just watch old matches if you don’t believe me.)  So it was easier to get a kid with relatively fewer skills into elite status.

However, these days, elite kids come out of high school with technical skills that are well beyond those that would work in the 70s. So that makes it much more difficult to get a kid with lesser skills to the top. 

As a consequence, recruiting becomes that much more important.  And as I stated before, Iowa is at a geographic disadvantage when it comes to recruiting. 

Edited by Katie

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6 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

So other than the (unimportant?) fact that Zalesky took over the highest scoring team in NCAA history and had a bunch of talent returning, whereas Brands took over a pretty barren team, there's also the context they performed in (there was nothing like Penn State or even Ohio State, during Zalesky's tenure, and the team was just wrestling and recruiting much worse under Zalesky than they have under Brands

Good points all, but it's not as if the Hawkeyes completely dropped off the Earth under Zalesky, either. Wasn't their worst finish under him 6th place or something?

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1 minute ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Point is Zalesky was never given an opportunity to right the ship. Brands has been. People think its unfair.

People can feel free to think its unfair. Circumstances have changed, and so have expectations. Iowa cant afford to keep changing coaches until they are back to the Gable days, while Cael is around. If they fired brands and hold every new hire to that standard, Iowa would be a middle of the pack big ten team in no time.

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