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FLOwrestling is an absolute disgrace

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Though this is the n-th time this thread had resurrected, I never see the OP or those defending the OP with their position of "FLO is the worst" admit that they understand the actual facts of the situation:

1) A lot of the matches shown on FLO are through other providers like BTN, Oklahoma State, Cyclone TV, etc. FLO isnt the one putting up Piccinnini v Geer flip cup contests  during intermission or showing George White Chevrolet commercials. So when you get the SMPTE color bars during the Oklahoma State/Iowa match or when the camera cuts to gymnastics instead of showing a last second takedown by Isaiah White on Bryce Steiert, maybe look at the the actual broadcaster instead of the one allowing you to watch  99% of D1 teams during the season (only VMI didnt have a meet this season if I remember correctly)

9 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

Flo actually produces some events on our own (duals for UNI, SDSU, etc + tournaments like CKLV, Scuffle, etc), but for others we also take the finished product and host it on our platforms (Big Ten, OK State, etc). 

Never had problem  with CKLV Scuffle, other FLO produced duals and CKLV has become probably the premier regular season Tournament.

2) Outside of streaming duals and tournaments, FLO also produces great films and technique videos from the best in our sport. Coaches and wrestlers alike can now add to their arsenal of moves instead of reading it from a book

3) If you break the costs down, BTN and ESPN cost lets say $30 for cable, add $10/month for BTN+ (Because they are not the same), add $8/month for ESPN+ (Because they are not the same) and say $8/moth for Track Gold which doesnt include still having to pay for individual tournaments (NCAA Tournament is going for $15 on Track). Thats only for streaming. Add ~$4/month for Intermat Platinum and ~$4 TOM Prime for so you can get "Hard-Hitting Analysis" like this middle school report on what watching sports in the 90s was like (double spaced and increased characters to meet the editor's requirements im betting). All those services =~$72/month, and that doesnt include more than half of the other D1 teams.

4) Every company has problems, but just because ESPN is the biggest name doesnt mean they are the best to grow the spot. Yahoo had issues streaming football originally and Phil and Tiger had a similar issue only 4 months ago.  During the regular season duals carried by ESPN, they cant even post the team score along with the competing wrestlers' names at the same time. ESPN wouldnt bother with wrestling if they were able to get any NCAA Basketball, so keep that in mind.

In all, those who want to complain wont change their mind and will continue to be  the old man or woman yelling at clouds even though its been proven that FLO provides more streaming coverage, up to date analysis and news, and learning materials for coaches and students alike than all other current providers

PS, cant wait for FRL tomorrow

Edit: FLO pro also includes access to the other verticals (for me its new FloFC, though DC United heavy for this Philly Union fan), which is also great for if you and/or your child like other niche sports without the national coverage they deserve like Track and Volleyball. ESPN would rather spend their $$$ on eSports, poker, and corn-hole rather than Wrestling, volleyball, track, and even soccer combined.

Edited by Fighting_Blue_Jay

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12 hours ago, ptz305 said:

Keep in mind, they are charging more than ESPN charges for ESPN+. 

Keep in mind ESPN is losing money on ESPN+ which is fine for Disney but wouldn't make sense for FloSports.  Also, I'll go out on a ledge and say that Flo has fewer subscribers than ESPN+.

Link for ESPN+ losing money: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/05/disney-says-espn-has-2-million-paid-subscribers-but-is-losing-money.html

 

Is Flo perfect? No.  Are they a lot better than the alternatives? Yes.  Is $150/annually a decent chunk of change? Yes.  Do I think it is worth it? Yes.  Are you tired of reading a post where the poster answers is own questions in this format? Probably.

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10 hours ago, JohnG said:

Keep in mind ESPN is losing money on ESPN+ which is fine for Disney but wouldn't make sense for FloSports.  Also, I'll go out on a ledge and say that Flo has fewer subscribers than ESPN+.

Link for ESPN+ losing money: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/05/disney-says-espn-has-2-million-paid-subscribers-but-is-losing-money.html

 

Is Flo perfect? No.  Are they a lot better than the alternatives? Yes.  Is $150/annually a decent chunk of change? Yes.  Do I think it is worth it? Yes.  Are you tired of reading a post where the poster answers is own questions in this format? Probably.

These arguments are not logical.  

ESPN is offering a better product at a cheaper price and I am supposed to feel bad for them because they are losing money right now? C'mon man. You guys are playing mental gymnastics trying to defend Flo's bad product. If you are at a store, and there is an item on clearance, do you not buy it because you don't want the company to lose money? Do you buy a worse product from an inferior company because they aren't losing money? If you've purchased items from a company before and they consistently break or do not work, do you continue to buy them? 

As a consumer, I am looking for the best product and ESPN, Fox Sports, and NBC Sports are far superior to FLO in terms of reliability and production value. As a wrestling fan, I wish more events were broadcast on these platforms and not Flo. These companies produce a better product and make the sport accessible to the masses. 

To the people saying "how did anyone watch wrestling before Flo?" I answer - on my couch on network television. I remember watching Paulson and Hall wrestle an almost 30 minute match in the Olympic Trials back in 2004. In 2019, that same match would be behind a paywall and would have crashed five times. 

Wrestling brands are shooting themselves in the foot by aligning with Flo and limiting their accessibility. 

 

Edited by ptz305

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3 minutes ago, ptz305 said:

These arguments are not logical.  

ESPN is offering a better product at a cheaper price and I am supposed to feel bad for them because they are losing money right now? C'mon man. You guys are playing mental gymnastics trying to defend Flo's bad product. If you are at a store, and there is an item on clearance, do you not buy it because you don't want the company to lose money? Do you buy the worse product from an inferior company because they aren't losing money? 

As a consumer, I am looking for the best product and ESPN, Fox Sports, and NBC Sports are far superior to FLO in terms of reliability and production value. As a wrestling fan, I wish more events were broadcast on these platforms and not Flo. These companies produce a better product and make the sport accessible to the masses. 

To the people saying "how did anyone watch wrestling before Flo?" I answer - on my couch on network television. I remember watching Paulson and Hall wrestle an almost 30 minute match in the Olympic Trials back in 2004. In 2019, that same match would be behind a paywall and would have crashed five times. 

Wrestling brands are shooting themselves in the foot by aligning with Flo and limiting their accessibility. 

 

1

I will tell the bros back in the webcasting office that we need to pack it in. wrestling needs to align themselves with TV like NBC to increase accessibility. it's the perfect strategy. For example, I remember sitting on my couch in 2016, watching NBC breathlessly update the wrestling public about Ryan Lochte urinating on a Brazilian gas station instead of showing the full historic match of Helen Maroulis defeating Saori Yoshida. It may not be perfect, but that is the type of coverage wrestling deserves, that we can all agree on. 

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10 hours ago, Fighting_Blue_Jay said:

Though this is the n-th time this thread had resurrected, I never see the OP or those defending the OP with their position of "FLO is the worst" admit that they understand the actual facts of the situation:

1) A lot of the matches shown on FLO are through other providers like BTN, Oklahoma State, Cyclone TV, etc. FLO isnt the one putting up Piccinnini v Geer flip cup contests  during intermission or showing George White Chevrolet commercials. So when you get the SMPTE color bars during the Oklahoma State/Iowa match or when the camera cuts to gymnastics instead of showing a last second takedown by Isaiah White on Bryce Steiert, maybe look at the the actual broadcaster instead of the one allowing you to watch  99% of D1 teams during the season (only VMI didnt have a meet this season if I remember correctly)

Never had problem  with CKLV Scuffle, other FLO produced duals and CKLV has become probably the premier regular season Tournament.

2) Outside of streaming duals and tournaments, FLO also produces great films and technique videos from the best in our sport. Coaches and wrestlers alike can now add to their arsenal of moves instead of reading it from a book

3) If you break the costs down, BTN and ESPN cost lets say $30 for cable, add $10/month for BTN+ (Because they are not the same), add $8/month for ESPN+ (Because they are not the same) and say $8/moth for Track Gold which doesnt include still having to pay for individual tournaments (NCAA Tournament is going for $15 on Track). Thats only for streaming. Add ~$4/month for Intermat Platinum and ~$4 TOM Prime for so you can get "Hard-Hitting Analysis" like this middle school report on what watching sports in the 90s was like (double spaced and increased characters to meet the editor's requirements im betting). All those services =~$72/month, and that doesnt include more than half of the other D1 teams.

4) Every company has problems, but just because ESPN is the biggest name doesnt mean they are the best to grow the spot. Yahoo had issues streaming football originally and Phil and Tiger had a similar issue only 4 months ago.  During the regular season duals carried by ESPN, they cant even post the team score along with the competing wrestlers' names at the same time. ESPN wouldnt bother with wrestling if they were able to get any NCAA Basketball, so keep that in mind.

In all, those who want to complain wont change their mind and will continue to be  the old man or woman yelling at clouds even though its been proven that FLO provides more streaming coverage, up to date analysis and news, and learning materials for coaches and students alike than all other current providers

PS, cant wait for FRL tomorrow

Edit: FLO pro also includes access to the other verticals (for me its new FloFC, though DC United heavy for this Philly Union fan), which is also great for if you and/or your child like other niche sports without the national coverage they deserve like Track and Volleyball. ESPN would rather spend their $$$ on eSports, poker, and corn-hole rather than Wrestling, volleyball, track, and even soccer combined.

I think FLO is expensive but is the best value option for watching wrestling.

But you can't give FLO credit for using someone else's stream and say they cover 99% of the teams, but then absolve them from issues originating in someone else's stream.  They either get credit and blame for what they broadcast or they don't.  They can't be credited for covering OSU through and OSU stream, but then simultaneously not responsible for the OSU stream.

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i finally bit and got a Flo membership. watched the IA match and my HS alma mater in the state finals so that in itself was almost worth the $159 price tag for the year. There were a few blips during the IA match which were annoying, but it came right back on. I have to agree, unfortunately there are no better options out there. I think the opportunity for ESPN or any other, FoxSports e.g,. to grab wrestling and add it to their programming but no one seems to want to do it.

having FLO retain the rights to these types of broadcasts certainly does not help market the sport though because only the diehards want to see and buy this type of service. The other few 100 thousand folks who wanted to watch IA/OSU simply could not and that's where we are failing our fans.

 

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27 minutes ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

I will tell the bros back in the webcasting office that we need to pack it in. wrestling needs to align themselves with TV like NBC to increase accessibility. it's the perfect strategy. For example, I remember sitting on my couch in 2016, watching NBC breathlessly update the wrestling public about Ryan Lochte urinating on a Brazilian gas station instead of showing the full historic match of Helen Maroulis defeating Saori Yoshida. It may not be perfect, but that is the type of coverage wrestling deserves, that we can all agree on. 

I thought there was only one bro still there.

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37 minutes ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

I will tell the bros back in the webcasting office that we need to pack it in. wrestling needs to align themselves with TV like NBC to increase accessibility. it's the perfect strategy. For example, I remember sitting on my couch in 2016, watching NBC breathlessly update the wrestling public about Ryan Lochte urinating on a Brazilian gas station instead of showing the full historic match of Helen Maroulis defeating Saori Yoshida. It may not be perfect, but that is the type of coverage wrestling deserves, that we can all agree on. 

Funny this is your example. I watched the Maroulis match live on the NBC Sports app from the other side of the world, but couldn't get OSU/PSU from you guys a few months later without it crashing. 

To those of you saying ESPN/Fox Sports/NBC Sports don't want wrestling - I encourage you to purchase an Apple TV or download their Apps on an IPad (you know, the same way you would have to do with Flo). You will be surprised at the amount of coverage they do offer right now. The ESPN app is full of ACC, EIWA, and Pac 12 duals that all work perfectly. Most are even available without purchasing ESPN+. 

Edited by ptz305

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1 minute ago, ptz305 said:

To those of you saying ESPN/Fox Sports/NBC Sports don't want wrestling - I encourage you to purchase an Apple TV or download their Apps on an IPad (you know, the same way you would have to do with Flo). You will be surprised at the amount of coverage they do offer right now. The ESPN app is full of ACC, EIWA, and Pac 12 duals that all work perfectly. Most are even available without purchasing ESPN+. 

 

If ESPN/Fox Sports/NBC Sports wanted wrestling they could have it. Flo would never win a bidding war. But you're right, they will let schools produce their own duals and then host them on their streaming services. I also encourage everyone to watch them!

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1 hour ago, boconnell said:

I think FLO is expensive but is the best value option for watching wrestling.

But you can't give FLO credit for using someone else's stream and say they cover 99% of the teams, but then absolve them from issues originating in someone else's stream.  They either get credit and blame for what they broadcast or they don't.  They can't be credited for covering OSU through and OSU stream, but then simultaneously not responsible for the OSU stream.

True, they take on a portion of responsibility for putting their name on it, but they should not bear the brunt of criticism. You don’t hold CBS responsible for the power going out during Super Bowl XLVII, do you? 

My point is that the OP says FLO is a disgrace but doesn’t admit that FLO looks to control very little of the broadcast itself (point in case, Ok St athletics posted the full match on YouTube for what the locals had and it has way less informative and doesn’t even have a score box in any match).

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20 hours ago, ThorsteinV said:

Flo has improved tremendously over the past few years.  But I do at least understand some of the criticism.  I'm still not sure why they don't offer a wider variety of pricing/membership options; especially if the streaming capacity issues are less of a concern.  $150/year is certainly economical but some potential users are budget constrained while others may not view sufficient content to justify purchasing an annual membership.  Why not offer the $30/month memberships for casual fans?  I'd think that would more than offset the liquidity concerns or cash flow problems it may present.  

I'd rather pay monthly, but my guess is that 90% of us would be canceling in about 3 weeks.  

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3 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

If ESPN/Fox Sports/NBC Sports wanted wrestling they could have it. Flo would never win a bidding war. But you're right, they will let schools produce their own duals and then host them on their streaming services. I also encourage everyone to watch them!

You keep saying "school produced" like it has some type of negative connotation. The truth is that these broadcasts still work way better than Flo's. Could care less about whatever graphics you throw on screen or how many nicknames you've got for the wrestlers, I'll take a broadcast I can see over one that goes black any day. I'm in it for the wrestling, not to hear you guys make fun of Pyles. 

Edited by ptz305

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15 minutes ago, ptz305 said:

You keep saying "school produced" like it has some type of negative connotation. The truth is that these broadcasts still work way better than Flo's. Could care less about whatever graphics you throw on screen or how many nicknames you've got for the wrestlers, I'll take a broadcast I can see over one that goes black any day. 

where are you getting a negative connotation from? I'm explaining who produces the video because there is a lot of confusion about it among the fans. 

I understand why you'd be reluctant to subscribe to Flo after the site went down before the PSU OK State dual in 2017 but I would recommend you give it another chance. Maybe borrow someone else's account for a bit. 

Here's the OK State PSU dual by the way, up for free. Quality production imo. And here is the 2019 Southern Scuffle full event replay (behind the paywall). very proud of how this one went. 

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46 minutes ago, TFBJR said:

I'd rather pay monthly, but my guess is that 90% of us would be canceling in about 3 weeks.  

You're obviously right.  The fact that Flo doesn't offer the monthly memberships indicates that they do not find it profit maximizing to do so.  They should be indifferent if the typical monthly member maintained their subscription for at least five months ($30x5=$150); unless they have working capital problems. Additionally, the absence of the monthly memberships provides insight into their customer base; e.g., that the typical monthly member does not (or really did not) consume more than four months of wrestling in a year.  

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People keep mentioning the monthly option, and I'm not sure why it went away either. My guess would be though that with annual subscriptions, it is easier to know the load that you need to support will be. Everyone against the 150 annually is making it seem like every wrestling fan in America would have shelled out 20-30 bucks to watch the dual. Since much of the arguments are hypothetical I will offer one too.

Say for example Flo brings back the monthly option, or a one time fee. They have to assume and guess how much bandwidth support they need from dual to dual. If they predict 25,000 viewers and only 10,000 watch, they lose money. If they predict 5,000 and 20,000 watch, it crashes. I feel like this logic may be is there were far more issues in the past when it seemed like the feed would crash more often, and the month to month was available.

Even if people want to make the argument that they want a monthly option. Dec-Mar at $30/month is 120 dollars. For an extra 30 dollars you get the whole year, and you can watch FS/GR events, and further support the sport. Trust me, I don't mean to come across like a rich prick. I definitely understand what 150 dollars at once can require. Another option is put aside $12.50 each month and then you have your FloSports for the year.

Edited by gopher_fan_90

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4 hours ago, DuckFor2 said:

i finally bit and got a Flo membership. watched the IA match and my HS alma mater in the state finals so that in itself was almost worth the $159 price tag for the year. There were a few blips during the IA match which were annoying, but it came right back on. I have to agree, unfortunately there are no better options out there. I think the opportunity for ESPN or any other, FoxSports e.g,. to grab wrestling and add it to their programming but no one seems to want to do it.

having FLO retain the rights to these types of broadcasts certainly does not help market the sport though because only the diehards want to see and buy this type of service. The other few 100 thousand folks who wanted to watch IA/OSU simply could not and that's where we are failing our fans.

 

Hey Duck, you just answered my question presented to Flo on multiple occasions (email and phone calls with no response.) I wanted to know why I just was charged $159 vs $150. Now I see you were charged $159 as well so maybe there was a price increase. $150 or $159, either way its well worth it to me!

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18 minutes ago, gopher_fan_90 said:

People keep mentioning the monthly option, and I'm not sure why it went away either. My guess would be though that with annual subscriptions, it is easier to know the load that you need to support will be. Everyone against the 150 annually is making it seem like every wrestling fan in America would have shelled out 20-30 bucks to watch the dual. Since much of the arguments are hypothetical I will offer one too.

Say for example Flo brings back the monthly option, or a one time fee. They have to assume and guess how much bandwidth support they need from dual to dual. If they predict 25,000 viewers and only 10,000 watch, they lose money. If they predict 5,000 and 20,000 watch, it crashes. I feel like this logic may be is there were far more issues in the past when it seemed like the feed would crash more often, and the month to month was available.

Even if people want to make the argument that they want a monthly option. Dec-Mar at $30/month is 120 dollars. For an extra 30 dollars you get the whole year, and you can watch FS/GR events, and further support the sport. Trust me, I don't mean to come across like a rich prick. I definitely understand what 150 dollars at once can require. Another option is put aside $12.50 each month and then you have your FloSports for the year.

I've always thought the reason for the high marginal cost to new customers was a barrier to prevent them from overrunning their bandwidth and crashing the feed.  As I said previously, if that is no longer an issue perhaps it is time to bring back the monthly memberships. 

Personally for anything above $90 or $120, I do not feel that the value outweighs the cost so there's no deal.  I watch NCAAs DI wrestling and freestyle; with BTN2GO, ESPN, and various ways of watching UWW events, I really only need a Flo membership for 3 or 4 months.  I'm an economist, it's not the monthly budgeting that concerns me. 

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1 hour ago, gopher_fan_90 said:

People keep mentioning the monthly option, and I'm not sure why it went away either. My guess would be though that with annual subscriptions, it is easier to know the load that you need to support will be. Everyone against the 150 annually is making it seem like every wrestling fan in America would have shelled out 20-30 bucks to watch the dual. Since much of the arguments are hypothetical I will offer one too.

Say for example Flo brings back the monthly option, or a one time fee. They have to assume and guess how much bandwidth support they need from dual to dual. If they predict 25,000 viewers and only 10,000 watch, they lose money. If they predict 5,000 and 20,000 watch, it crashes. I feel like this logic may be is there were far more issues in the past when it seemed like the feed would crash more often, and the month to month was available.

Even if people want to make the argument that they want a monthly option. Dec-Mar at $30/month is 120 dollars. For an extra 30 dollars you get the whole year, and you can watch FS/GR events, and further support the sport. Trust me, I don't mean to come across like a rich prick. I definitely understand what 150 dollars at once can require. Another option is put aside $12.50 each month and then you have your FloSports for the year.

This is a great explanation for why they are not monthly.  I'd far prefer monthly but if an unexpected swell in bandwidth crashes them then this is probably the smarter way for them to do it.

But after being burned by them in the past I'm hesitant to make a large 1 year commitment.  I love their product and love the personalities, but I don't want to make the commitment until their tech matches their intentions, and every other thread about FLO tells me they still have lots of issues.  So I'll wait a few years until streaming reliability catches up and the excellent product is matched with excellent reliability.  

Edited by boconnell

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On 2/25/2019 at 10:54 AM, TFBJR said:

Interesting analog: 

  1. The Chelsea / Man City Carabao Cup final stream crashed yesterday after 120 minutes of playing time during the Penalty kicks.  People were going crazy.  he entire bar tried to flash to their phones for video or twitter feeds. 
  2. The HBO finale of True Detective was on at 9:00 last night.  That channel only (on my Cablevision) was experiencing problems and unavailable.  

Computers and technology are a pita.  So are executive decisions (Heidi). 

My Chelsea/MCity feed didn't crash.

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I can't believe how many people in this thread not only hate Flo, but hate America.  It's a product, and a cheap one at that.  150/year and you claim you have passion for the sport?  When I cut cable it was over 200 a bill per month with no pay channels beyond the sports package that was 8.99.

Flo has done more for Wrestling in the past 10 years than any other factor in our sport.  To not believe is to live in complete isolation.

I can't believe you'd advocate for ESPN when they literally refuse to show wrestling on their main networks (business decision because no one watches it numbers wise), but then steps in to buy out and air NCAA's and you have no issue with that?

 

 

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there are so much worse things people can be doing with 150/year such as:

  • I can be smoking a pack a cigarettes a day for $10
  • A night out on the town
  • buying juul pods for $20
  • donating to trump campaigns

$12 a month is so cheap for such solid content for a sport that people love, reading people complain is priceless.  

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......... i think Flo is GREAT!!! never had one issue. love the technique stuff and other offerings. Cup of coffee - TV with an NFL game on- laptop with a dual meet on -all i'm missing is one of Robert Kraft's girlfriends..........................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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6 minutes ago, lurshy92 said:

there are so much worse things people can be doing with 150/year such as:

  • I can be smoking a pack a cigarettes a day for $10
  • A night out on the town
  • buying juul pods for $20
  • donating to trump campaigns

$12 a month is so cheap for such solid content for a sport that people love, reading people complain is priceless.  

This is funny as $%i&.

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1 hour ago, LordNelson said:

My Chelsea/MCity feed didn't crash.

Legends Football Factory sports bar in NYC.  The place went berserk.  Chelsea fans were not happy.  No free drinks were proffered. 

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