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tirapell

Push-out rule in folkstyle?

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I'll be the first to admit, I love folkstyle and have loathed about every rule change FILA has made to freestyle & greco-roman wrestling since 1980ish, including the push-out for 1 point rule. This is coming from wrestling all 3 styles but from a perspective of not scrapping folkstyle, but improving it.

 

After many years with the push-out rule, I'm actually thinking that it could make sense in folk. The more I watch elite international wrestling, the more I see how important controlling the mat is, which I think is a big part of the sport that we've lost. I'm not sure the exact rules for implementation, but I do like the fact that the wrestlers are required to stay on the mat and battle, fighting to maintain control over the middle. Controlling the mat is a MUCH bigger part of international wrestling whereas in folkstyle, we rely on the referee to "call stalling" to make controlling the mat important. Anything that removes subjectivity and puts the onus on the wrestlers in an objective fashion with objective measure is a good thing IMO. Right now, too much relies on the referee and his interpretation, which varies from ref to ref, region to region, and level to level.

 

Does the push-out result sometimes in the defensive guy scoring? Yes, it does. It's not perfect. Maybe something to look at. But it does force you to attempt action in the center or if your opponent won't wrestle the center, you try to push them out.

 

The other benefit in folkstyle is that a takedown is worth 2 points, not 1. In freestyle/greco, the pushout is worth the same as the takedown and one is so much easier to get than the other. But in folkstyle, the pushout would still only be worth 1/2 of a takedown, making the takedown, though more difficult to achieve, still the ultimate goal. You'd not only be rewarded with double the points, but the opportunity to wrestle on top, get a turn, and in college, accumulate riding time. Still a better deal than a push-out point.

 

Ever since I've been in wrestling, "stalling" has been the most hotly debated and misunderstood/misinterpreted rule in the sport. What if we actually took a page out of the international styles and included the push-out for 1 point in the neutral position to minimize the effect of "stalling", either called or not called?

 

Benefits:

1. Controlling the mat is rewarded. Stalling is less important of a call/non-call.

2. Better transition to international styles. Isn't that why some want to eliminate folkstyle?

3. Easier scoring opportunities = more scoring. People like scoring. Anything to get back and forth scoring/lead changes is good.

 

Drawbacks:

1. Sometimes the attacker will step out first and thus the wrong guy is rewarded.

2. No real implementation for top/bottom.

 

Just wondering if anyone else has seen the push-out grow on them from a folkstyle perspective?

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Are you sure the folkstyle community can withstand sweeping changes like that? They aren't used to changes in the rules.

 

Are you being sarcastic? I'm not sure because this doesn't seem like a huge change. It'd be a change, but not a revamp of the match format or current point values for scoring. I'd call it a moderate change, but something that could be adapted to rather quickly, considering you're SUPPOSED to be doing it anyway (wrestling in/controlling the center of the mat that is).

 

Bascially, I see it as a reworking of the importance of the stall call. Have you ever been to a folkstyle wrestling match where people weren't yelling for stalling?

 

I liken it to going to an NBA basketball game where 17,000 home fans scream for a 3-second violation on every possession. Seems absurd, but that's pretty much what we do in wrestling -- yell at the ref to make a subjective call to help determine the outcome of a match for the duration of most matches. If you're losing, the other guy is stalling. If you can't score, the other guy is stalling. If you can't get the bonus points you want, the other guy must be stalling.

 

How would the NBA's ratings fare if instead of 1 or 2 3-second violations per game, they went to 20-30?

 

I think this is a valid thing to address and look for a better solution.

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^^^You want to improve Folk, freestye, Greco? Use big mat in an ENCLOSED AREA, where you can't go out of bounds. You notice boxing is done inside a ring. Wouldn't boxing be a bit goofie, if bouts were conducted on a mat that is not enclosed, and the official would repeatedly make out-of-bounds calls with restarts back in the center? How about MMA with no enclosure and official has to repeatedly signal out of bounds with restarts back in the middle? Isn't it obvious amateur wrestling needs to be wrestled in an enclosed area, with an end to repeated out of bounds, stop the clock, then need for restart?

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^^^You want to improve Folk, freestye, Greco? Use big mat in an ENCLOSED AREA, where you can't go out of bounds. You notice boxing is done inside a ring. Wouldn't boxing be a bit goofie, if bouts were conducted on a mat that is not enclosed, and the official would repeatedly make out-of-bounds calls with restarts back in the center? How about MMA with no enclosure and official has to repeatedly signal out of bounds with restarts back in the middle? Isn't it obvious amateur wrestling needs to be wrestled in an enclosed area, with an end to repeated out of bounds, stop the clock, then need for restart?

 

I see what you're saying, but logistically this just isn't possible. The other angle is, I think wrestling is designed to be a close-combat sport, not something where you have room to escape your opponent. You escape by having superior technique, strength, and stamina, not by having more mat room.

 

I'd love to see all wrestling mats be 55' and maybe then a push-out rule isn't required (maybe), but it just isn't realistic or possible.

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I think one residual thing that would have to go along with the push-out in folkstyle is the removal of the escape point. Otherwise the cumulative effect of the takedown and release would be identical to the pushout.

 

 

All you have to do is adjust the rules so that if one person is in control no push-out point is possible. In free/Greco, there is no push-out if someone is on their knees.

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I think one residual thing that would have to go along with the push-out in folkstyle is the removal of the escape point. Otherwise the cumulative effect of the takedown and release would be identical to the pushout.

 

Possibly. I think quickly wrestlers would adapt to not getting "pushed out' by maintaining better mat position, thus allowing more opportunities for takedowns.

 

My point is, I don't think you'd see a decrease in the # of takedowns, because of the increased opportunity for those takedowns by guys having to stay on the mat. The net result would be an increase in action and scoring -- same number (or more) takedowns with the addition of occational push-out points.

 

The whole premise of the push-out point is not to reward pushing people out, it's to discourage wrestlers from avoiding wrestling. Despite my initial knee-jerk reaction to hating the push-out, I actually see the benefit from positive reinforcement standpoint. Punish behavior that is not desired (avoiding action by going out of bounds) and you get more positive behavior (wrestling in the center of the mat).

 

I think a takedown and subsequent escape, with the opportunity to ride, tire, and turn your opponent, for 1 point is at least the equivalent of getting a push-out. Remember, if you just get a push-out, your opponent is still on his feet and can get right back after you on the takedown (or push-out) with no opportunity on top. Make sense?

 

What would really be nice is if we had pre-season events where we could put rules to a test and see if they improve the sport, before having to committ 100% to every change. It'd be nice to see a takedown tournament with the push-out rule in place and see what the results were, at both the high school and collegiate levels.

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I recently made a post about the PO rule on the high school board. I too think it would be easily adaptable to folk. As far as implementing it in the mat wrestling, my suggestion is if they get to their feet you may not go out of bounds. This would help greatly in avoiding guys simply pushing a guy out if his opponent stands. If bottom man is off his knees he may not be pushed out.

 

The problem I see is the need for video review. I'd like to know how often step out calls were actually overturned to see if it's necessary.

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I am against the idea, just call stalling the way it is supposed to be called. I hate the fact in freestyle that a push out is worth the same as a takedown. Some freestylers don't shoot anymore they just wait for a counter and a two handed shove. Also, you don't learn to actually finish a takedown, Outside single or a double leg and you just drive them out of bounds. The more folkstyle leans to freestyle rules, you could start to see 75 kids in preseason tournaments, just like freestyle has really died off over the last 25 years. I went to a freestyle tournament five years ago and their was 63 wrestlers combined ( k-12) including girls. I talked to the tournament director and he said this same tournament in the 1980's brought over 300 kids without the girls division. They stopped having the qualifier the next year. I'm glad it's still offered to do in the summer, but folkstyle is what dominates our youth,high school and college. Most of the folkstyle tournaments that I have attended over the past 30 years have gotten bigger and the mega folkstyle tournaments have taken it to another level. Flo,Super32,Mawa,Reno,Disney,TOC,NHSCA,Beast,Ironman,Powerade ect... In Folkstyle number are up don't mess with it, it's not broken. Didn't NCAA's just break the attendance record? The ratings were also very good.

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I am against the idea, just call stalling the way it is supposed to be called. I hate the fact in freestyle that a push out is worth the same as a takedown. Some freestylers don't shoot anymore they just wait for a counter and a two handed shove. Also, you don't learn to actually finish a takedown, Outside single or a double leg and you just drive them out of bounds. The more folkstyle leans to freestyle rules, you could start to see 75 kids in preseason tournaments, just like freestyle has really died off over the last 25 years. I went to a freestyle tournament five years ago and their was 63 wrestlers combined ( k-12) including girls. I talked to the tournament director and he said this same tournament in the 1980's brought over 300 kids without the girls division. They stopped having the qualifier the next year. I'm glad it's still offered to do in the summer, but folkstyle is what dominates our youth,high school and college. Most of the folkstyle tournaments that I have attended over the past 30 years have gotten bigger and the mega folkstyle tournaments have taken it to another level. Flo,Super32,Mawa,Reno,Disney,TOC,NHSCA,Beast,Ironman,Powerade ect... In Folkstyle number are up don't mess with it, it's not broken. Didn't NCAA's just break the attendance record? The ratings were also very good.

 

Fair enough. I agree with you in some ways.

 

Would you be opposed to to pre-season events where trial rules (like a push-out) were implemented to do real life tests before making any changes?

 

I think this is one area that we're missing in wrestling. If we took non-season events and designated a few a developmental, we could test rules that might improve the sport, but might also not have the intended consequence. Either way, you wouldn't break something that wasn't broken but you would allow the sport the opportunity for growth without fear of messing it up.

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I like this idea. It's been talked about on these boards for years. The only negative I hear is that some people (myself NOT included) really like all the playing around the edge of the mat so that most takedown attempts involve one guy doing the splits and the other trying to drag him back in, and this goes on for 20-30 seconds.

 

In addition to the benefits described above in this post, another big benefit is that matches would be shorter in total duration due to less stoppages. The number of stoppages for going out of bounds in NCAA wrestling has gotten ridiculous, with a 7 minute match now taking at least 10 minutes to complete, and often times longer. A 7 minute match shouldn't take much longer than 7 minutes to complete in my opinion.

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^^^If you have a pushout rule, then wrestlers start to setup pushouts (rather than TD's) when they get nearer to the edge of the mat. I don't have a strong opinion on this, but will note that I don't follow summo wrestling. I, however, am getting tired of the repeated out-of-bounds that goes on in folk style.

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^^^If you have a pushout rule, then wrestlers start to setup pushouts (rather than TD's) when they get nearer to the edge of the mat. I don't have a strong opinion on this, but will note that I don't follow summo wrestling. I, however, am getting tired of the repeated out-of-bounds that goes on in folk style.

 

Hopefully college wrestlers would learn to make adjustments quickly, as they have done at the senior level. While you do frequently see athletes finish takedowns going out of bounds and getting a step out but not really finishing the takedown, what you don't see is athletes simply pushing each other around and getting stepouts sumo style. For this to happen, there would have to be a huge mis-match in skill level, with one guy being able to manhandle his opponent around, and if this is the case, then the better wrestler can just take his opponents down at will anyway, no need to push him out of bounds. But freestyle athletes just don't hang out near the edge. As soon as they get backed up outside the center, they already start to handfight and circle back to the center. This would be a welcome change in college wrestling.

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I, however, am getting tired of the repeated out-of-bounds that goes on in folk style.

 

But freestyle athletes just don't hang out near the edge. As soon as they get backed up outside the center, they already start to handfight and circle back to the center. This would be a welcome change in college wrestling.

 

Yes and yes. As I said, it'd be nice to test.

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Most of the pro-side of the argument seems to come down to preventing stalling, something we all want. I am tired of seeing teams of kids who have clearly been taught to ride the line late in matches to give them a boost against a better conditioned athlete. Near the edge, offensive wrestlers would begin to set up pushouts instead of takedowns, but the defensive wrestler would have to initiate a hand fight and begin moving so as not to give up points.

 

Doing this would also help us get ready for international competition, which we can probably all agree is a good thing.

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Hell yes!

 

pushout in folk would be awesome. for so many reasons i can't even list them all.

 

greenmt. has a pt about 'if refs called stalling the way they should'

 

but that is never, ever going to happen. plus, it's subjective.

 

going oob isn't. i love the idea.

 

i also think it would take a miracle to get the nfhs to change the rules in hs.

 

1) those guys are bunch of pop tarts

 

2) they really don't know anything about wrestling and the benefits of this dynamic

 

3) i'd guess they're scared to death of rocking the boat.

 

i'd love to write an article on it. it's about time they move to this. if there's one thing wrestling lacks in the eyes of mainstream and novice viewers its action. this would, at minimum, encourage it.

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i also think it would take a miracle to get the nfhs to change the rules in hs.

 

1) those guys are bunch of pop tarts

 

2) they really don't know anything about wrestling and the benefits of this dynamic

 

3) i'd guess they're scared to death of rocking the boat.

 

i'd love to write an article on it. it's about time they move to this. if there's one thing wrestling lacks in the eyes of mainstream and novice viewers its action. this would, at minimum, encourage it.

I don't know, Husker. They did change the weight classes for no real reason.

 

Maybe they will actually look at an idea that has merit and institute something that makes sense.

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yeah, idk OM.

 

them changing the weights is one reason i don't put any hope in them doing something that makes sense.

 

that being said, one potential angle you could take in pitching this rule change to them is this:

 

high school will not adopt the college oob rule b/c there isn't adequate room around the mats in hs events.

 

if you pitch the idea that a push out rule would keep the action in bounds it might be a safer alternative.

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The thing that makes it impossible to implement in high school is that officials are never able to get it right. It seems that nearly 50 percent of our officials at local high school matches never wrestled but are nonetheless reffing, and the other 50 percent wrestled at a very average level in high school and that's it. So we have officials that have a very hard time calling takedowns, reversals, and escapes correctly. These officials would probably struggle with stepout calls. Even in college with better officials you can imagine some hard to score scenarios. At FILA events, there is a ref, a mat chairman, and judge, and each call has to get confirmation. And then there's video review on top of this.......and they still get calls wrong!

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The thing that makes it impossible to implement in high school is that officials are never able to get it right. It seems that nearly 50 percent of our officials at local high school matches never wrestled but are nonetheless reffing, and the other 50 percent wrestled at a very average level in high school and that's it. So we have officials that have a very hard time calling takedowns, reversals, and escapes correctly. These officials would probably struggle with stepout calls. Even in college with better officials you can imagine some hard to score scenarios. At FILA events, there is a ref, a mat chairman, and judge, and each call has to get confirmation. And then there's video review on top of this.......and they still get calls wrong!

 

 

Refs are never going to be perfect. We should always strive to have the best rules set possible. The step out is a very simple call.

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yeah, thats the thing. step outs are pretty darn simple.

 

there are the occasions where a bit of subjectivity comes into play when guys go out on their knees, but it's still way less subjective than stall calls (or worse yet, non stall calls).

 

as much as i love hs wrestling, i love kids developing more.

 

and the push out rule would do more for kids development than any other measure.

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