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tirapell

Push-out rule in folkstyle?

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Lots of rules are subjective. Remember the Jordon Oliver no takedown call.

We have all witnessed it called the other way many times. Ask football officials about holding calls. They pick and choose which to call.

 

Last year they talked about fleeing the mat being a “point of emphasis.” I don’t believe by NCAA Tournament time there was much difference in the interpretation than the preceding years.

 

You all have good arguments you just don’t have me convinced it’s good for wrestling.

 

silverback

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This is perfect timing for this discussion. I wonder how many Greco matches were won by push out? Freestyle is coming up check it out and see. Here’s what I see, 1st period, push out for 1, do nothing the rest of the period. Win the period. Second period push out for 1, do nothing for the rest of the period. Win the match.

 

silverback

 

 

that would have absolutely no application in folk where there is a cumulative score.

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Lots of rules are subjective. Remember the Jordon Oliver no takedown call.

We have all witnessed it called the other way many times. Ask football officials about holding calls. They pick and choose which to call.

 

Last year they talked about fleeing the mat being a “point of emphasis.” I don’t believe by NCAA Tournament time there was much difference in the interpretation than the preceding years.

 

You all have good arguments you just don’t have me convinced it’s good for wrestling.

 

silverback

 

 

certainly remember both instances/issues.

 

i was hoping to see more flee calls, but actually saw less.

 

doesn't mean the initial statement and intention wasn't right. it means it wasn't carried out.

 

a push out rule for folk would not only be a better product for fans, it would do something far more import: develop wrestlers and put the emphasis on wrestling and situation wrestling vs it becoming a strategic (and boring) game

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At its core, any rule that promotes more wrestling during a wrestling match is a good thing. Thus, any rule that creates less stoppages of time, less usage of the edge of the mat as an evasive escape strategy, and more points on the board is a good rule. Sure, calling fleeing and stalling are supposed to prevent this, but there are too many problems with relying on refs to consistently call it, and athletes still try to work the system to get away with whatever they can. For example, you can defend a single leg on the edge and not get called for stalling or fleeing as long as you don't dive out of bounds, so you can make it look like you are really wrestling, but position yourself in such a way that for your opponent to finish, he has to drive you out of bounds, thus getting nothing. Simply giving points for stepping out of bounds would eliminate this sort of gamesmanship, unless of course a wrestler didn't mind giving away points.

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At its core, any rule that promotes more wrestling during a wrestling match is a good thing. Thus, any rule that creates less stoppages of time, less usage of the edge of the mat as an evasive escape strategy, and more points on the board is a good rule. Sure, calling fleeing and stalling are supposed to prevent this, but there are too many problems with relying on refs to consistently call it, and athletes still try to work the system to get away with whatever they can. For example, you can defend a single leg on the edge and not get called for stalling or fleeing as long as you don't dive out of bounds, so you can make it look like you are really wrestling, but position yourself in such a way that for your opponent to finish, he has to drive you out of bounds, thus getting nothing. Simply giving points for stepping out of bounds would eliminate this sort of gamesmanship, unless of course a wrestler didn't mind giving away points.

 

I have yet to meet that wrestler :)

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I think it is a great idea. It would certainly cut down on stalling/fleeing the mat, and contrary to what some people believe it does not result in "sumo wrestling". There is a lot of technique that might need to be changed but the good wrestlers will adjust very quickly. This is the one new freestyle rule that I love.

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"so your beef about a close call for Lester is fruitless."

 

Excuse me? What beef about a close call?

 

It wasn't a close call.

 

It was clearly a pushout, no doubt about it. It was also the case the Lester was the aggressor and the German was backed to the edge where he turned the tables and scored the point. That happens in freestyle and would also happen in high school folkstyle.

 

If the idea is to punish the wrestler who constantly backs up, then that defensive wrestler being able to score in the process, defeats the purpose of the rule, doesn't it?

 

Yes it does, and I hate that result.

 

 

 

"Determining what would be sufficient "contact" in order to evade the circle would be a tough call for a ref."

 

No contact would be the rule. This would result in no more backing up two or three steps before any contact is made bewteen the wrestlers. No judgment call at all. I'd like to see backing up off the whistle stopped and this would do it automatically. Stalling would still be in effect, and I think psychologically it would become easier for the ref to call.

 

"The added circle would also be very hard to accomplish at ALL levels of wrestling due to the cost of a new mat or paint job on the current mats."

 

Well, I'm talking high school and I reject expense as a reason not to make this change. I wonder if it would cost less than the TOTAL cumulative cost of changing high school weight classes.

 

Maybe not, but maybe yes.

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At its core, any rule that promotes more wrestling during a wrestling match is a good thing. Thus, any rule that creates less stoppages of time, less usage of the edge of the mat as an evasive escape strategy, and more points on the board is a good rule. Sure, calling fleeing and stalling are supposed to prevent this, but there are too many problems with relying on refs to consistently call it, and athletes still try to work the system to get away with whatever they can. For example, you can defend a single leg on the edge and not get called for stalling or fleeing as long as you don't dive out of bounds, so you can make it look like you are really wrestling, but position yourself in such a way that for your opponent to finish, he has to drive you out of bounds, thus getting nothing. Simply giving points for stepping out of bounds would eliminate this sort of gamesmanship, unless of course a wrestler didn't mind giving away points.

 

I have yet to meet that wrestler :)

 

You might have not noticed DF posting?

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"how does it add more judgement calls? it doesn't at all. the only time judgement would be in play would be if a wrestler is on his knees. otherwise, first body part to hit out, is out. other guy gets the point.

 

pretty darn simple and objective."

 

 

 

I seem to see an awful lot of "bricks" tossed on out of bounds calls. If it were so simple that wouldn't happen. Other posters have talked about judgement being rendered based on who initiated the action. Well, it seems that recognizing who is initiating the action would be completely irrelevant.

 

Or is it relevant?

 

 

 

 

The idea is to keep wrestlers from backing up away from the center of the mat. At least that's what I thought, until I reviewed your post actually advocating sumo-like principles.

 

If a wrestler backs up to the out of bounds, he may or may not get penalized by a push out. He may even get rewarded with his own push out. To me that is unacceptable.

 

My idea is for the backing wrestler to get punished without the possibility of the aggressive wrestler giving up a point. It would also be safer for high school.

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Steve, with all due respect, that's a heck of a convoluted way to offset the fact that you don't like when kids get countered on the edge.

 

keep it simple: you step out, it's a point.

 

everything else is just minutiae

 

 

Really? I posted about a center circle step out several years ago (before I knew what a freestyle push out really was). I've resurrected the idea because it's on point, and I believe it work work very well, provided it could be implemented.

 

I also think it would be as simple, if not simpler, than the push out rules.

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Steve, with all due respect, that's a heck of a convoluted way to offset the fact that you don't like when kids get countered on the edge.

 

keep it simple: you step out, it's a point.

 

everything else is just minutiae

 

Steve, I don't like it when my guy is the aggressor the whole match but gets countered by a defensive wrestler and loses. There are many such examples. All we can do is try to clean up the rules to make them more clear and objective for wrestlers, referees, coaches, and fans.

 

A wrestler is free to employ whatever style they wish. It's the job of the rules to reward positive behavior and discourage negative behavior. You can't make a wrestler shoot or try to score. But you can make them remain on the mat for the other guy to wrestle. International wrestling has always been tatical and boring to the average fan, but now at least the guys have to play defense on the mat and can't avoid a score by going out-of-bounds. Take away the push-out rule with the current FILA rules and you'd probably see 3x-5x as many periods ending 0-0 and going to ball grab.

 

I can think of a few situations where I'd hate for a folkstyle wrestler to give up a point stepping out, like the one you mentioned, but I can think of hundreds of instances where it would create more aggressive, active wrestling and clean up a lot of the issues we have in folkstyle today.

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If a wrestler backs up to the out of bounds, he may or may not get penalized by a push out. He may even get rewarded with his own push out. To me that is unacceptable.

 

The push-out rule has been in effect for at least 8 years internationally. These are the best wrestlers on the planet and not one wrestler in the world, to my knowledge, has perfected the strategy of backing up to the edge and then redirecting his opponent's momentum for the push-out point. In fact, all seem to fight like hell to stay in the center to avoid giving up the easiest point to score, the push-out.

 

I think it's safe to assume that if the best in the world are unable to employ that strategy consistently, then our high school and collegiate wrestlers will not fare any better.

 

This is a little tounge-in-cheek but think about it. You're not going to lose everytime you wrestle on the edge but the percentages are woefully against you. Over the course of a tournament or a season, throwing headlocks or wrestling the edge with a push-out rule will probably not lead to an extended level of success. ;)

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At its core, any rule that promotes more wrestling during a wrestling match is a good thing. Thus, any rule that creates less stoppages of time, less usage of the edge of the mat as an evasive escape strategy, and more points on the board is a good rule. Sure, calling fleeing and stalling are supposed to prevent this, but there are too many problems with relying on refs to consistently call it, and athletes still try to work the system to get away with whatever they can. For example, you can defend a single leg on the edge and not get called for stalling or fleeing as long as you don't dive out of bounds, so you can make it look like you are really wrestling, but position yourself in such a way that for your opponent to finish, he has to drive you out of bounds, thus getting nothing. Simply giving points for stepping out of bounds would eliminate this sort of gamesmanship, unless of course a wrestler didn't mind giving away points.

 

I have yet to meet that wrestler :)

 

You might have not noticed DF posting?

 

I said a WRESTLER. ;)

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Alright, Tirapell. I also understand that the long delays for appeals in current freestyle would be much shorter in high school matches. I just think my proposal keeps the advantages of the current pushout rules, while removing the disadvantages.

 

I also will predict that the combination of pushouts and the Ironman Tournment could well lead to injuries, and that might not be the only place where it will happen.

 

 

 

I'm outvoted by folks I respect.

 

So be it.

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Alright, Tirapell. I also understand that the long delays for appeals in current freestyle would be much shorter in high school matches. I just think my proposal keeps the advantages of the current pushout rules, while removing the disadvantages.

 

I also will predict that the combination of pushouts and the Ironman Tournment could well lead to injuries, and that might not be the only place where it will happen.

 

 

 

I'm outvoted by folks I respect.

 

So be it.

 

I appreciate your perspective. It brings up things to think about.

 

One other thought:

 

I don't mean to keep disagreeing but don't you think the push-out would actually make the Ironman SAFER? If only 1 foot of 1 wrestler goes out, it's a push-out point. Right now, action continues through the edge until both guys are out-of-bounds. Not to mention, right now, the edge of the mat is an advantage for the defensive wrestler, making him more apt to try and get out of bounds.

 

I'm thinking with a push-out, you could actually justify the smaller mats of the Ironman and ALL wrestling would have to be done within the 28' circle.

 

Think about this, what if we could fit more mats in an arena AND the matches would go faster because of the drastically reduced out-of-bounds time? You might be able to do more with less and still get better, active wrestling?

 

I'm just spit-balling on this but more than from a wrestling perspective, it seems to have legs from a logistical standpoint as well.

 

Keep the good thoughts coming!

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Here is a problem I see with the push out rule. When the wrestlers get close to the edge, wrestling stops and it becomes a pushing game. We have all witnessed offensive wrestlers totally out of bounds pursuing a takedown and finish in bounds with control. That doesn’t happen with the push out rule. Even if you are the aggressor and you step out of bounds, boom, you lose a point and action is stopped.

 

How about if I’m down by 14 and a pin loses for my team. I can simply go over to the edge and step out. Meet over my team wins.

 

I know these are kind of out there but I think there are too many scenarios to just change the rule.

 

silverback

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I also will predict that the combination of pushouts and the Ironman Tournment could well lead to injuries, and that might not be the only place where it will happen.

 

I'm not sure if step-outs would have any greater chance of injury at the high school level than the current rules, because wrestling would stop as soon as a foot steps out. Or at least it should. The officials will have to be on top of it. That's not much different than what happens now, although if anything they let wrestling continue longer on the edge now. Not as much as college, but one guy stepping out with one foot only doesn't get a whistle under current high school rules. There will always be a chance for injury going out of bounds. But the best solution to that is to have minimum guidelines for distances to a wall or table. Many tournaments have mats right up against walls, which is completely unsafe, and led to a wrestler from North Carolina being paralyzed last season. Whenever the outer circle is within a few feet of a wall, it makes any wrestling on that edge of the mat hazardous, no matter what the out of bounds rules are. When finishing a double leg takedown, it only takes 1-2 seconds to go from 10 feet in bounds, to several feet out of bounds.

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Here is a problem I see with the push out rule. When the wrestlers get close to the edge, wrestling stops and it becomes a pushing game. We have all witnessed offensive wrestlers totally out of bounds pursuing a takedown and finish in bounds with control. That doesn’t happen with the push out rule. Even if you are the aggressor and you step out of bounds, boom, you lose a point and action is stopped.

 

How about if I’m down by 14 and a pin loses for my team. I can simply go over to the edge and step out. Meet over my team wins.

 

I know these are kind of out there but I think there are too many scenarios to just change the rule.

 

silverback

 

 

You could also choose top and cut the guy, but that doesn't mean we should eliminate choice at the start of a period.

 

There will always be casualties of war with any change.

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I also will predict that the combination of pushouts and the Ironman Tournment could well lead to injuries, and that might not be the only place where it will happen.

 

I'm not sure if step-outs would have any greater chance of injury at the high school level than the current rules, because wrestling would stop as soon as a foot steps out. Or at least it should. The officials will have to be on top of it. That's not much different than what happens now, although if anything they let wrestling continue longer on the edge now. Not as much as college, but one guy stepping out with one foot only doesn't get a whistle under current high school rules. There will always be a chance for injury going out of bounds. But the best solution to that is to have minimum guidelines for distances to a wall or table. Many tournaments have mats right up against walls, which is completely unsafe, and led to a wrestler from North Carolina being paralyzed last season. Whenever the outer circle is within a few feet of a wall, it makes any wrestling on that edge of the mat hazardous, no matter what the out of bounds rules are. When finishing a double leg takedown, it only takes 1-2 seconds to go from 10 feet in bounds, to several feet out of bounds.

 

 

NO on a folkstyle push-out rule. The people who keep tinkering with the rules of the sport have made a mess. Like GreenMt said earlier, call stalling like it is supposed to be called and there is no problem. Most people decry the current state of international wrestling, and now you want to bring it into folkstyle? You guys are being short-sighted. Yes, it will resemble the current state of international wrestling, but that is not always a good thing. I love wrestling, but the Sumo stuff is boring and will NEVER grow a fan base outside the die-hard wrestling fan. I am dumbfounded that people are considering this option as a 'great idea.'

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Here is a problem I see with the push out rule. When the wrestlers get close to the edge, wrestling stops and it becomes a pushing game. We have all witnessed offensive wrestlers totally out of bounds pursuing a takedown and finish in bounds with control. That doesn’t happen with the push out rule. Even if you are the aggressor and you step out of bounds, boom, you lose a point and action is stopped.

 

How about if I’m down by 14 and a pin loses for my team. I can simply go over to the edge and step out. Meet over my team wins.

 

I know these are kind of out there but I think there are too many scenarios to just change the rule.

 

silverback

 

 

You could also choose top and cut the guy, but that doesn't mean we should eliminate choice at the start of a period.

 

There will always be casualties of war with any change.

 

Yes but do those casualties make american wrestling better or worse? In my opinion it makes it worse.

 

silverback

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NO on a folkstyle push-out rule. The people who keep tinkering with the rules of the sport have made a mess. Like GreenMt said earlier, call stalling like it is supposed to be called and there is no problem. Most people decry the current state of international wrestling, and now you want to bring it into folkstyle? You guys are being short-sighted. Yes, it will resemble the current state of international wrestling, but that is not always a good thing. I love wrestling, but the Sumo stuff is boring and will NEVER grow a fan base outside the die-hard wrestling fan. I am dumbfounded that people are considering this option as a 'great idea.'

 

+1 silverback

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I think I could support a modified push-out rule. Too often we see neutral position tie-ups "walk" themselves off the mat to reset their position, or flea the mat to avoid a take down. I think for folkstyle a modified version of a push-out rule would have the following key points:

 

- Push-out primarily from neutral position although fleeing the mat scenarios from other positions could be involved with this point opportunity.

 

- Would be objective. Clear examples would include backing out of the circle to avoid a takedown when the offensive wrestler has control of a leg or when a wrestlers walks back a tie-up out of bounds. I can think of Megaludis defensive wrestling splits against McD working it out of bounds, or even Taylor walking back a tie-up he wasn't comfortable with.

 

- First out of bounds would result in a warning or caution followed by a point.

 

- Fleeing the mat would be bundled into the same warning / point out of bounds rule.

 

I think controlling mat space is not emphasized enough in folkstyle and the new rule could help our transition to international.

 

I would NOT want to see the rule implemented the same way we see it implemented in Freestyle. I think if a guy is executing a move and the defender shifts his body to use the offensive guys momentum and execution to score an out of bounds point would be detrimental to folkstyle and the main reason why we love collegiate wrestling so much ... "control".

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NO on a folkstyle push-out rule. The people who keep tinkering with the rules of the sport have made a mess. Like GreenMt said earlier, call stalling like it is supposed to be called and there is no problem. Most people decry the current state of international wrestling, and now you want to bring it into folkstyle? You guys are being short-sighted. Yes, it will resemble the current state of international wrestling, but that is not always a good thing. I love wrestling, but the Sumo stuff is boring and will NEVER grow a fan base outside the die-hard wrestling fan. I am dumbfounded that people are considering this option as a 'great idea.'

 

 

Fair enough. If you could just reference me a period of time (say 2-3 years) where "stalling was called like it was supposed to be called" so I could go back and see some of those matches and why it worked then, and why in the 20+ years of high school and college wrestling I've experienced, I never saw it.

 

If you don't like the push-out rule, that's ok. We're all here for opinions. It may not be the right solution. I would like to see it tested, but that's why I brought it up. Sorry though, I just can't buy into the "just call stalling right" since it hasn't worked yet and somehow, miraculously in the future, the ship is going to right itself and stalling will be a non-issue. Stalling is like religion. Everyone has their own interpretation of what's "right".

 

And let me be clear, I see a distinct difference between stalling and leaving the mat area. If you can't score on your opponent because he is stalling, at least he's on the mat and you just can't beat his defense for whatever reason. And although that's boring, he's on the wrestling area just choosing not to be offensive. If he runs to the edge and goes out of bounds on all attacks, that's not the same. I don't know if there's ever going to be a fix for making a wrestler be active, but we damn sure can make them stay on the mat.

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The problem with using the stalling call to take care of the push-out is inconsistency and complaints of favoring one over another. I think the modified version of the rule as I posted it could supplement and support the stall call with a more concrete rule to prevent stall tactics.

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