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tirapell

Push-out rule in folkstyle?

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I'm with Husker & AT - the subjectivity of stalling & fleeing the mat (why have a rule refs only call 5% of the time?) from the neutral position is the most frustrating part of American folkstyle wrestling for a fan. If the pushout rule eliminates that, even if adding some other downsides, then it's still a step in the right direction.

 

If nothing else, give it a shot in preseason tourneys. Try to improve the sport. If it fails on its face so be it. But the less control a ref has for deciding a match, the better it is in my opinion.

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Tirapell is correct. Stalling never has been, and never will be called, correctly. This goes both ways. Some officials like to insert themselves into the match, and they call stalling when it really shouldn't be stalling, and directly affect the outcome of a match. This is especially true in matches at Carver-Hawkeye arena when an Iowa guy takes shot, the opponent sprawls or takes one step back to defend, the crowd starts booing and gets a stall call. Pretty ridiculous. But more often, officials don't like to insert themselves into the competition and so they err on the side of caution and are way too hesitant with stall calls. I've seen matches, where in the third period, the guy winning is running out of steam and so right off the whistle he slowly starts backing up towards the edge, even without his opponent touching him. The ref will say "circle in guys" and the winning wrestler will circle, but not IN, and will just continue circling on the edge, so that any shot attempts go out of bounds. After about the third out of bounds, there will be a stall warning, and after three more out of bounds there will be a stall point awarded. But guess what......too little too late. The match is over, and even though stalling was called, the stalling wrestler still won, and only got penalized one point for stalling for an entire 2 minute period. What should have happened is that each of those instances of backing up out of bounds should have been called stalling. So 6 stall calls in 2 minutes. But virtually no ref is going to do that. The pushout solves the problem Either the winning wrestler mans up and stays in the center, or he gives up 6 points for continually backing out of bounds.

 

Also, FYI, the step out in no way resembles SUMO. Takedowns are frequently finished as step outs, but I've never seen an international match, not one, where two guys stand in the red zone fighting for the pushout. Maybe this will happen at the high school level with unskilled wrestlers, but those same wrestlers would be the ones standing straight up, that don't know how to sprawl, that reach back and grab the head on bottoms, and that hit a horrible headlock attempt as their main move in neutral. Show me two wrestlers standing on the edge doing sumo, and I'll show you too novice wrestlers that don't know what they're doing.

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Here is a problem I see with the push out rule. When the wrestlers get close to the edge, wrestling stops and it becomes a pushing game. We have all witnessed offensive wrestlers totally out of bounds pursuing a takedown and finish in bounds with control. That doesn’t happen with the push out rule. Even if you are the aggressor and you step out of bounds, boom, you lose a point and action is stopped.

 

How about if I’m down by 14 and a pin loses for my team. I can simply go over to the edge and step out. Meet over my team wins.

 

I know these are kind of out there but I think there are too many scenarios to just change the rule.

 

silverback

 

 

You could also choose top and cut the guy, but that doesn't mean we should eliminate choice at the start of a period.

 

There will always be casualties of war with any change.

 

Yes but do those casualties make american wrestling better or worse? In my opinion it makes it worse.

 

silverback

 

 

You may be right. There's no question I'm not 100% certain this is the answer. But I've seen it actually increase action at the international level, which used to be a complete snoozefest until the dreaded "clinch" (in it's various hideous forms over the years).

 

I'm looking at this simplistically. Does it create more action? Yes. Does it maintain the integrity of the sport? I think yes, but this is the big question. Because the clinch "creates action", but it does so at the expense of the sport. Just like starting a greco wrestler on top with a reverse lock creates a lot of power bombs, but so does WWE. I still want WRESTLING, not some gimmicky sport with action modifiers. No rule should give one man an advantage over the other. I think the push-out is universal to all wrestlers of all types in each individual match.

 

I think the answers to both of those questions have to be yes to have something that works. FILA only looks at the first -- does it create more action?

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I don’t know that I’m right either. I just know that when I watch elite wrestlers at the Olympic level the action really diminishes, and a 1 point push out adds no excitement for me. Neither wrestler has really accomplished anything that relates to wrestling. I think you guys that are coaching youth wrestling are seeing something altogether different. But that’s exactly what it is, something altogether different. I agree run a series of college test before you change the rule. And get reaction from fans, coaches, refs, and wrestlers. Then bring it to the rules committee.

 

silverback

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We act like we are always in the best shape and our folkstyle of wrestling most challenges one's conditioning level. Go back and count up the amount of rest our wrestlers are allowed to accrue by going out of bounds and having to reset. When you start focusing on it sometimes it gets very frustrating to watch and the time really adds up.

 

My question is can it work without video review? Again I wonder how many step out calls are overturned at the major freestyle events. That will tell us whether or not video is necessary. I have a feeling it is obvious way more often than not and video isn't necessary but video does eliminate the subjectivity of it.

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Silverback, I think if you went back and looked at the big throws that have occurred in freestyle thru the last several years, a large majority of those are BECAUSE of the push out rule. Think Frayer at beat the streets. I think the PO rule creates action.

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My question is can it work without video review? Again I wonder how many step out calls are overturned at the major freestyle events. That will tell us whether or not video is necessary. I have a feeling it is obvious way more often than not and video isn't necessary but video does eliminate the subjectivity of it.

 

 

Calls for all sorts of things are missed all the time. Despite that, all of the current rules work without video review (except stalling, of course).

 

The pushout would be the simplest rule to call in the sport. You either stepped out or you didn't.

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Haven't read through all the replies to this thread yet, but I will post my opinion and concerns.

 

I should start by saying that I agree with the idea of implementing a push out rule. At first, I hated it in freestyle, just because it was different. I don't think I was alone in this. But over the years they have been able to refine the rules and officiating to a point that there is relatively little subjectivity in freestyle, and I really enjoy watching our boys at the Senior level.

 

I agree with most of the points that have been expressed by tirapelli, husker and others. I think a pushout should only apply to neutral wrestling. I think you leave stalling, but the pushout rule would change the subjectivity and necessity of this call dramatically. I like the idea (not sure who thought of it, sorry) of basically changing fleeing the mat into a pushout call. I like the idea of trying it out in preseason tournaments.

 

I do believe, however, that implementing a pushout rule to folkstyle would present unique scenarios that would be difficult to referee, especially without video review. These are just off the top of my head, and only because I am trying to see where this "movement" could hit some snags.

 

1. Attacking wrestler has a single leg elevated, and is attempting to push the defending wrestler out of bounds. Just before stepping out, the defending wrestler hits some desperation funk/rolls for an ankle/creates a scramble (we don't see this in freestyle much because of exposure). It appears the attacking wrestler will be able to secure a takedown, but ONE of the wrestlers goes out of bounds and stops the action. If it is the defending wrestler, whether they're on their knees or not, the attacking wrestler misses out on an opportunity to get a 2pt takedown off the defending wrestler's funk attempt. If the attacking wrestler goes out of bounds, he either gives up a point, or, if they're on their knees, can't score a takedown. In this scenario, the rules would seem to favor the defensive wrestler, which seems to counteract part of the reason we all want this rule: more offense.

 

2. Attacking wrestler hits a blast double on the edge of the mat. If he steps out before the defending wrestler hits the mat, does he give up a point? Does he have to drag his toes to get a 2pt takedown instead of just 1? In freestyle it doesn't matter. Takedown=1pt, pushout=1pt. Perhaps I'm not familiar enough with freestyle rules.

 

3. A scramble starts somewhere in the middle of the mat. The wrestlers eventually work their way to the edge. Even if both wrestlers are on the mat and they go out of bounds, does the action stop? If one wrestler appears to be about to give up a takedown, what's stopping him from reaching and touching the out of bounds? They're both on the mat, so in theory no points would be scored. Again, a situation where a pushout would favor the defensive wrestler.

 

Sorry for the long post and the drawn out scenarios. Hope they were clear enough. I know it's hard to talk actual wrestling through a written explanation.

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I am basically in agreement with Tirapel on this. I've coached wrestlers from the 1st grade thru post collegiate for the past 49 years. I was fortunate to be exposed to Greco while in the army by a wrestler frim Turkey who'd been in the 1960 Olympics. I've been taught most of my skills bt Hall of Fame ciaches, two who were head Olympic coaches.

 

 

When i start kids who've never wrestled before, i teach them to do Sumo in the center circle. They learn to push/pull, circle to the trail leg, drags and snaps. They never get cautioned for stalling even by a referree who is agressive at stalling.

 

Playing the edge of the mat was started by Art Griffith. Ed Gallagher taught an aggressive style, i know because my high school coach wrestled for him.

 

We've all seen wrestlers who "run" for the last 30 seconds protecting a 1 or 2 point lead, because they are pretty sure the ref won't call stalling if they maje it look good. Now in the 2 point lead, they can't play the edge too long, or they might get pushed out.

 

I think we'd see more throws in the last 30 seconds of the 3rd period, because a wrestler couldn't risk a pushout.

 

I think video replay would be possible only in the championship matches. Assign mat judges like in internationally, since our assistant referees don't do much anyway.

 

It will help the transistion from folkstyle to freestyle much more quickly. It used to take one year for our elite college wrestlers to transition. Mostly learning par terre akills was what they had to master. Now that par terre has come close to being eliminated, you would think we'd transistion quicker. We aren't because college wrestlers work to get out if bounds to avoid a takedown. That was what freestylers did 40 years ago. So there has been almost a complete reversal in folkstyle and freestyle edge of the mat wrestling in the neutral position.

 

I say try it and see how it works. The NCAA and FILA constantly change rules anyway. As soon as Americans figure out how to win under the current rules, FILA will change them again.

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1. Attacking wrestler has a single leg elevated, and is attempting to push the defending wrestler out of bounds. Just before stepping out, the defending wrestler hits some desperation funk/rolls for an ankle/creates a scramble (we don't see this in freestyle much because of exposure). It appears the attacking wrestler will be able to secure a takedown, but ONE of the wrestlers goes out of bounds and stops the action. If it is the defending wrestler, whether they're on their knees or not, the attacking wrestler misses out on an opportunity to get a 2pt takedown off the defending wrestler's funk attempt. If the attacking wrestler goes out of bounds, he either gives up a point, or, if they're on their knees, can't score a takedown. In this scenario, the rules would seem to favor the defensive wrestler, which seems to counteract part of the reason we all want this rule: more offense.

 

2. Attacking wrestler hits a blast double on the edge of the mat. If he steps out before the defending wrestler hits the mat, does he give up a point? Does he have to drag his toes to get a 2pt takedown instead of just 1? In freestyle it doesn't matter. Takedown=1pt, pushout=1pt. Perhaps I'm not familiar enough with freestyle rules.

 

3. A scramble starts somewhere in the middle of the mat. The wrestlers eventually work their way to the edge. Even if both wrestlers are on the mat and they go out of bounds, does the action stop? If one wrestler appears to be about to give up a takedown, what's stopping him from reaching and touching the out of bounds? They're both on the mat, so in theory no points would be scored. Again, a situation where a pushout would favor the defensive wrestler.

I think all of your concerns would be eased if a takedown and a pushout were both worth the same amount of points. If this gets implemented and a takedown is 2, but a pushout is 1, it makes things unnecessarily complicated.

 

which seems to counteract part of the reason we all want this rule: more offense.

 

It's true that pushouts should create more offense, but I don't think about the need for the pushout this way. I favor the pushout because it forces wrestlers to control the mat space and their own body positions. Both of those skills should be essential parts of the sport. Pushouts also should enhance safety, especially at crowded tournaments with small mats. If you go out of bounds, you can't continue wrestling while someone is virtually in the bleachers.

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i think you guys have all posted good ideas and valid concerns. like any change, there would be a learning curve and tactical adjustments, but i don't think it would be very dramatic. and in my humble opinion, the benefits to wrestling and the development of skills greatly outweigh the adjustments that would take place.

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I will admit that I am a huge wrestling fan and especially big when it comes to college and high school. I have wrestled freestyle and greco(years ago and limited, I might add) but I fail to find the "enjoyment" in the international styles any more. I mean, I can watch a classic baseball game pitchers dual end 1-0 and love it but I can't endure many of these Greco matches with the pushouts.

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just because FS/GR have a push out rule does not mean that if folk added a push out

 

it would become 'like fs/gr'

 

for me, the concept of implementing a push out for folk has nothing to do with wanting to be like fs, or to even prepare our kids for fs. it has to do with a more exciting product, more emphasis on what counts, and better development for the kids.

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I also agree that a pushout should be added to folk on its own merits, not because we want to be like freestyle and greco. Easing the transition would be a welcome side effect, but in no way is the reason for the change. The simple reason for change is that it's infuriating to watch (or coach) a 7 minute wrestling match where there's very little wrestling going on because all the action is on the edge. It's really that simple. As much as Americans like to brag about our conditioning and ability to wrestle 7 minute matches, it's all a facade if those 7 minutes (which actually take 10-12) don't have much wrestling but instead a bunch of gamesmanship on the edge of the mat.

 

I have watched the greco matches at the Olympics this year, and agree that they were atrociously boring, but it had nothing to do with the pushout rule. Greco has a whole different set of problems that folkstyle wrestling doesn't have going on right now. Same with freestyle, although not as bad. Any perceived boredom in the matches comes from other rules, not the pushout.

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Pushing out is the other side of the retreating out of bounds coin. It is just as much stalling. It isn't wrestling, except in sumo and the eight years since international styles abandoned it's soul. Current rules say both wrestlers are to attempt to stay in, and allow the other to return inbounds. Push out violates this.

 

I could tolerate step out (or refusing to return/stalemated in that in order to return you'd concede position) advantage being used as an overtime tie breaker in matches where activity points have been scored. It should only be an incentive to avoid the edge if possible, not a match determiner in and of itself.

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Pushing out is the other side of the retreating out of bounds coin. It is just as much stalling. It isn't wrestling, except in sumo and the eight years since international styles abandoned it's soul. Current rules say both wrestlers are to attempt to stay in, and allow the other to return inbounds. Push out violates this.

 

I could tolerate step out (or refusing to return/stalemated in that in order to return you'd concede position) advantage being used as an overtime tie breaker in matches where activity points have been scored. It should only be an incentive to avoid the edge if possible, not a match determiner in and of itself.

 

 

seriously?

 

pushouts don't happen by accident. they're the result of hard work and the technique of establishing and enforcing position; something that's sorely lacking at every level of wrestling in america.

 

you can refer to examples of where a guy with his back to the edge of the mat scores when another guy is the aggressor, but that's both an error on the aggressors part and more an exception than the rule.

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Here's a thought, and one that I'd just throw out there, rather than endorse right off the bat...

 

Here goes: The first wrestler to go out of bounds gets a point against him (ie. the other wrestler scores) ONLY if both of them end up going out of bounds. Obviously, this would probably have to be developed further, but thoughts are greatly appreciated. (note: this only works in neutral. In mat wrestling, whoever is at a disadvantage vis-a-vis a change in position when they go out of bounds should be docked, ie. the top man to defend a standup, or the bottom man to defend what would otherwise be near-fall points or a fall)

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I have another scenario to think about. Let’s say it’s the finals of a big tournament say like he Afton Quadrangular. Team scores are tied. We are in the first period of an overtime match with two wrestlers from the tied teams wrestling. It’s been a great match, no staling or backing out. A scramble starts in the middle of the mat and it works its way over toward the edge. When one wrestler is just about to gain control his foot, elbow, tongue, head, or whatever touches out of bounds. Match over, he loses. I still say there are way too many issues with the push out rule to be valid for Folkstyle.

 

silverback

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You may be right. There's no question I'm not 100% certain this is the answer. But I've seen it actually increase action at the international level, which used to be a complete snoozefest until the dreaded "clinch" (in it's various hideous forms over the years).

 

 

 

GUYS, there is nothing wrong with folkstyle aside for what is happening in the center of the mat. Yeah, guys play the edge - then have the refs call fleeing the mat more often. But the rule allowing the action to continue as long as one part of the body is inside has made much of the old problems go away. Fleeing the mat needs to be called at a better rate - and that CAN be done. The problem is the 2 minutes of handfighting that occurs and refs are NOT calling the double stalling. Why? The coaches and fans jump down their throats too often when the refs make that call against our wrestler. I, too, have been guilty of getting on a ref's case when he makes a call against a kid I have coached- nothing crazy, just a yell or two. But enough yelling at a ref will make certain guys gun-shy about making a call. B.S.? Go watch a guy be a coldcaller at a brokerage firm. 8 out of 10 guys, after making 400 calls a day and being called every name in Grandma's handbag, will be shells of their former self when they pick up the phone eventually.

 

Tirapel, I appreciate you want to make folkstyle a little more exciting - but folkstyle is NOT on life support - international wrestling is dropping viewers. All due respect - the Big Ten style of push push push and handfight until somebody tires has hurt much of the technique in the sport. Yes, defense has gotten better - but the amount of times I watch just pushing and pulling for the entire first period , it has made matches look like two dogs fighting over the same t-shirt.

 

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT bring in a push out rule into folkstyle. Our international guys are the cream of the crop in this country when it comes to technique, yes? - Maybe 40 -50% of the freestyle and greco matches have been like watching sumo wrestling. What do you think will happen if there is a push-out rule where the guys are not as experienced, athletic, or technically sound? More than 75 - 85 % of the wrestling will be more Sumo than Folkstyle. Like I said in my other post- don't be short-sighted, but more importantly, there is nothing that bad with collegiate wreslting that a little more emphasis on taking risks can't fix. Tirapel is known throughout this sport, and has made an argument with a level head- but that does not make him correct. And honestly, I am a little surprised people cannot foresee what would be the type of wrestling ushered in if a push-out rule were allowed to be implemented. It would be horrible for our technique in this country. Also, one of our better attributes in this country is our ability to scramble in awkward positions - well a lot of that would be gone. There are so many reasons not to even consider a push-out rule, yet there are many guys in this thread saying yes. Why, because one of the guys proposing it has a name? I respect Tirapel for what he has given to the the sport, as we all have given much of ourselves to wrestling; but on this matter, I must say you are very wrong, very respectfully.

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I have another scenario to think about. Let’s say it’s the finals of a big tournament say like he Afton Quadrangular. Team scores are tied. We are in the first period of an overtime match with two wrestlers from the tied teams wrestling. It’s been a great match, no staling or backing out. A scramble starts in the middle of the mat and it works its way over toward the edge. When one wrestler is just about to gain control his foot, elbow, tongue, head, or whatever touches out of bounds. Match over, he loses. I still say there are way too many issues with the push out rule to be valid for Folkstyle.

 

silverback

 

 

scrambles that start in the middle would not be subject to push-out pts.

 

this is the way it is in fs now, and i'd keep that intact.

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FILA implemented the push-out rule after attending the NCAAs one year and seeing how much time was spent on the edge of the mat. Amazing that our perfect, wholesome and great folkstyle was very instrumental in FILA's changing of the rules.

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So there were no out of bound issues with the rest of the world only us? I don’t buy it.

 

And what constitutes the middle? One foot from the center of the mat or one foot from the edge? Sounds subjective to me.

 

silverback

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GUYS, there is nothing wrong with folkstyle aside for what is happening in the center of the mat. Yeah, guys play the edge - then have the refs call fleeing the mat more often. But the rule allowing the action to continue as long as one part of the body is inside has made much of the old problems go away. Fleeing the mat needs to be called at a better rate - and that CAN be done. The problem is the 2 minutes of handfighting that occurs and refs are NOT calling the double stalling. Why? The coaches and fans jump down their throats too often when the refs make that call against our wrestler. I, too, have been guilty of getting on a ref's case when he makes a call against a kid I have coached- nothing crazy, just a yell or two. But enough yelling at a ref will make certain guys gun-shy about making a call. B.S.? Go watch a guy be a coldcaller at a brokerage firm. 8 out of 10 guys, after making 400 calls a day and being called every name in Grandma's handbag, will be shells of their former self when they pick up the phone eventually.

 

Tirapel, I appreciate you want to make folkstyle a little more exciting - but folkstyle is NOT on life support - international wrestling is dropping viewers. All due respect - the Big Ten style of push push push and handfight until somebody tires has hurt much of the technique in the sport. Yes, defense has gotten better - but the amount of times I watch just pushing and pulling for the entire first period , it has made matches look like two dogs fighting over the same t-shirt.

 

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT bring in a push out rule into folkstyle. Our international guys are the cream of the crop in this country when it comes to technique, yes? - Maybe 40 -50% of the freestyle and greco matches have been like watching sumo wrestling. What do you think will happen if there is a push-out rule where the guys are not as experienced, athletic, or technically sound? More than 75 - 85 % of the wrestling will be more Sumo than Folkstyle. Like I said in my other post- don't be short-sighted, but more importantly, there is nothing that bad with collegiate wreslting that a little more emphasis on taking risks can't fix. Tirapel is known throughout this sport, and has made an argument with a level head- but that does not make him correct. And honestly, I am a little surprised people cannot foresee what would be the type of wrestling ushered in if a push-out rule were allowed to be implemented. It would be horrible for our technique in this country. Also, one of our better attributes in this country is our ability to scramble in awkward positions - well a lot of that would be gone. There are so many reasons not to even consider a push-out rule, yet there are many guys in this thread saying yes. Why, because one of the guys proposing it has a name? I respect Tirapel for what he has given to the the sport, as we all have given much of ourselves to wrestling; but on this matter, I must say you are very wrong, very respectfully.

 

 

All good points. Just a few thoughts:

 

1. The NFL is the most popular and profitable sport in the United States. They have made MANY changes over the years to the rules, including this year, even though they are at the top. Looking for ways to improve should not be relegated to to when you are on your last breath.

 

2. With all due respect, college wrestling IS on life support. The NCAA Championships are amazing and profitable. The rest of the sport in many parts of the country is all but dead. Even traditional "wrestling areas" are dropping programs and championship programs at that (Nebrasaka-Omaha). Eventually, wrestling will only be a regional sport. It'll still have a "National Champion", but how meaningful will that be with only 10 states represented?

 

I disagree with you and I think you're missing what the rule would create, but I appreciate your commentary. It does prevoke thought. We need a venue to test ideas out but I am 100% in the camp that if you're not improving, you're falling behind.

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