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tirapell

Push-out rule in folkstyle?

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just because FS/GR have a push out rule does not mean that if folk added a push out

 

it would become 'like fs/gr'

 

for me, the concept of implementing a push out for folk has nothing to do with wanting to be like fs, or to even prepare our kids for fs. it has to do with a more exciting product, more emphasis on what counts, and better development for the kids.

 

Great way to put it, agree 100%

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So there were no out of bound issues with the rest of the world only us? I don’t buy it.

 

And what constitutes the middle? One foot from the center of the mat or one foot from the edge? Sounds subjective to me.

 

silverback

 

 

touche silverback. fair point.

 

there is a subjective element to it. watch FS. it doesn't come into play very often. it's otherwise clear if the pushout was due to one guy initiating offense, or cirumstantial. it's not too complicated, and far less subjective than stall calls and flees.

 

it's a small detail to be worked out in exchange for the benefits and a wholly better product.

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This perceived lack of action and playing the edge is quite honestly not born out in the results. Just go back and look at the most recent NCAA brackets and you’ll see that there were an enormous number of bonus point wins. This completely undermines the notion that there is no action thus that argument for this horrifically bad idea is not valid.

 

 

Guys that want to score are going to score and guys that like close matches are going to have close matches regardless of adoption the push-out.

 

There is a second group of people here that are international style sycophants who will simply not be happy until they convince the US to adopt freestyle only. They vehemently argue that this rule has actually improved international wrestling. This rule has made Greco completely unwatchable. Guys literally grab each others arms; try to stick the top of their head in the other guy’s ear, and push in a circular manner. I’ve just watched 30 matches where at least 75% of the time was exactly that. I’m sorry that is not an improvement.

 

 

They are in the extreme minority and while they are vocal on message boards they do not hold enough positions of power (thankfully) to make this happen. Vigilance against these people is critical to preserve the sport the VASY MAJORITY love.

 

 

While analyzing sports and changing the rules in an intelligent manner is critical for any sport to grow and thrive making a bad decision based upon inaccurate or misperceived information will have a deleterious effect.

 

 

You will not improve NCAA or High School wrestling with this rule.

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This perceived lack of action and playing the edge is quite honestly not born out in the results. Just go back and look at the most recent NCAA brackets and you’ll see that there were an enormous number of bonus point wins. This completely undermines the notion that there is no action thus that argument for this horrifically bad idea is not valid.

 

 

Guys that want to score are going to score and guys that like close matches are going to have close matches regardless of adoption the push-out.

 

There is a second group of people here that are international style sycophants who will simply not be happy until they convince the US to adopt freestyle only. They vehemently argue that this rule has actually improved international wrestling. This rule has made Greco completely unwatchable. Guys literally grab each others arms; try to stick the top of their head in the other guy’s ear, and push in a circular manner. I’ve just watched 30 matches where at least 75% of the time was exactly that. I’m sorry that is not an improvement.

 

 

They are in the extreme minority and while they are vocal on message boards they do not hold enough positions of power (thankfully) to make this happen. Vigilance against these people is critical to preserve the sport the VASY MAJORITY love.

 

 

While analyzing sports and changing the rules in an intelligent manner is critical for any sport to grow and thrive making a bad decision based upon inaccurate or misperceived information will have a deleterious effect.

 

 

You will not improve NCAA or High School wrestling with this rule.

So you are blaming Greco's boringness on just the push-out rule?

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Ok, we've brought out some people that are 100% against the idea. Fair enough.

 

But the biggest question remains would you be willing to at minimum see this implemented at developmental events? I can't understand being so against something that you wouldn't be willing to see it in action and test your theories. After all, if you're 100% sure it will flop, it would only go to prove your point that it is not needed in folkstyle wrestling.

 

I think most people are posting here from a pro-folkstyle position, since it is a college wrestling board. I'd guess nearly all of the people contributing are serious folkstyle fans and want to see the sport thrive into the future.

 

Don't confuse this one rule adaptation to "trying to be like freestyle/greco". I don't think any real folkstyle fan in the country wants a folkstyle that resembles that mess. It's hard to just take one element and analyze it in isolation. My point is like Du and BobDole said, I don't think the ugliness in greco is purely or even partially due to the push-out. I'd guess that's the only thing that saves most every match from going to par terre.

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Here's a thought, and one that I'd just throw out there, rather than endorse right off the bat...

 

Here goes: The first wrestler to go out of bounds gets a point against him (ie. the other wrestler scores) ONLY if both of them end up going out of bounds. Obviously, this would probably have to be developed further, but thoughts are greatly appreciated. (note: this only works in neutral. In mat wrestling, whoever is at a disadvantage vis-a-vis a change in position when they go out of bounds should be docked, ie. the top man to defend a standup, or the bottom man to defend what would otherwise be near-fall points or a fall)

 

 

SHP, I'm just struggling to see what problem this would solve. Why would BOTH guys need to go out of bounds for it to be a point? Are you trying to make it more like a fleeing call? And by both guys going out of bounds, do you mean both guys have 1 supporting point out of bounds like in high school, or like in college where both guys have all supporting points out of bounds?

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The Greco problem is not eitnrely from the push-out rule but it has turned many matches into a circlefest with not even an attempt to score. A large percentage of guys will not take a chance because a single push-out will win the period.

 

 

I have a problem with bringing in a bad rule for a test prorgam in any event because unfortunatly just like the government once adopted it cannot be gotten rid of.

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FILA implemented the push-out rule after attending the NCAAs one year and seeing how much time was spent on the edge of the mat. Amazing that our perfect, wholesome and great folkstyle was very instrumental in FILA's changing of the rules.

 

 

Wow, and you believe that? I got bridges for sale, how many do you want? I'll put you down for three.

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Current rules say both wrestlers are to attempt to stay in, and allow the other to return inbounds. Push out violates this.

 

Which rules say this?

 

5.9.1 and 5.9.2 puts the responsibility on both/each wrestler to try to work toward the middle. 5.9.2.2 allows for wrestlers interlocked in wrestling to go out of bounds.

Although 5.9.3 refers to mat wrestlinhg, 5.9.3.2 specifically cites "either wrestler pushing or pulling the opponent out" as stalling.

 

Bottom line: collegiate wrestling is about control of, or losing control to, your opponent. The wrestling area is where this activity takes place. Although controlling the area is important strategically, it is not, and shouldn't be, a part of the scoring surface. That would be the opponent.

 

If stalling was called properly (Mills/Gonzales scored near 30 points combined, yet each got a stall warning) this wouldn't be an issue. Part of good offense is being able to finish in bounds. Perhaps we should penalize a wrestler who allows the opponent to get OB when he's got a single up and can't keep the action in? Same as a push out, nobody has gained control.

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Ok, we've brought out some people that are 100% against the idea. Fair enough.

 

But the biggest question remains would you be willing to at minimum see this implemented at developmental events? I can't understand being so against something that you wouldn't be willing to see it in action and test your theories. After all, if you're 100% sure it will flop, it would only go to prove your point that it is not needed in folkstyle wrestling.

 

I think most people are posting here from a pro-folkstyle position, since it is a college wrestling board. I'd guess nearly all of the people contributing are serious folkstyle fans and want to see the sport thrive into the future.

 

Don't confuse this one rule adaptation to "trying to be like freestyle/greco". I don't think any real folkstyle fan in the country wants a folkstyle that resembles that mess. It's hard to just take one element and analyze it in isolation. My point is like Du and BobDole said, I don't think the ugliness in greco is purely or even partially due to the push-out. I'd guess that's the only thing that saves most every match from going to par terre.

 

 

I understand your position, Tirapel. Now, I'm against the idea not because I have not thought about it, I have. But to me, it would create an already heavy emphasis on push push push. Wrestling is being dropped because of a sub-par marketing strategy and Title IX. People want to see technique - especially if we want to grow a fan base. To the outside spectator - maybe even casual wrestling fan - the international style is boring. I know, watch the Russian Nationals. Well, maybe so should our fans. The problem with college wrestling is NOT the edge wrestling - IT IS WHAT GOES ON IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MAT!!! Push, pull, push, pull - how about an honest to goodness set up. Even how boring Greco is to everybody - watch the Europeans in their tie-ups - they use great subtle techniques to get their opponent off balance. Our guys just seemed to try to bull our way through opponent without any of their nuances. Although, I was pleasantly surprised watching Betts - he has a bright future. So I agree with you there - the Greco quandary is not solely due to the push-out. But if people were tired of the "Iowa-style bulldoze across the mat" before, wait until they got a heavy dose of that from every team. But the point is this, and is worth repeating - fix what goes on in the middle of the mat, and that will fix wrestling. The edge wrestling is Minuscule compared to what boring inaction happens in the middle where guys try to wear down each other with 2 minutes of hand-fighting.

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Current rules say both wrestlers are to attempt to stay in, and allow the other to return inbounds. Push out violates this.

 

Which rules say this?

 

5.9.1 and 5.9.2 puts the responsibility on both/each wrestler to try to work toward the middle. 5.9.2.2 allows for wrestlers interlocked in wrestling to go out of bounds.

Although 5.9.3 refers to mat wrestlinhg, 5.9.3.2 specifically cites "either wrestler pushing or pulling the opponent out" as stalling.

 

Bottom line: collegiate wrestling is about control of, or losing control to, your opponent. The wrestling area is where this activity takes place. Although controlling the area is important strategically, it is not, and shouldn't be, a part of the scoring surface. That would be the opponent.

 

If stalling was called properly (Mills/Gonzales scored near 30 points combined, yet each got a stall warning) this wouldn't be an issue. Part of good offense is being able to finish in bounds. Perhaps we should penalize a wrestler who allows the opponent to get OB when he's got a single up and can't keep the action in? Same as a push out, nobody has gained control.

 

 

If I just had a dollar for every time this phrase it uttered on a folkstyle wrestling board, I wouldn't have to work anymore.

 

Response to bottom line: I agree wholeheartedly. But if your opponent wont' stay in the wrestling area, then what are we back to? Let me guess -- "just call stalling properly"...

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I understand your position, Tirapel. Now, I'm against the idea not because I have not thought about it, I have. But to me, it would create an already heavy emphasis on push push push. Wrestling is being dropped because of a sub-par marketing strategy and Title IX. People want to see technique - especially if we want to grow a fan base. To the outside spectator - maybe even casual wrestling fan - the international style is boring. I know, watch the Russian Nationals. Well, maybe so should our fans. The problem with college wrestling is NOT the edge wrestling - IT IS WHAT GOES ON IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MAT!!! Push, pull, push, pull - how about an honest to goodness set up. Even how boring Greco is to everybody - watch the Europeans in their tie-ups - they use great subtle techniques to get their opponent off balance. Our guys just seemed to try to bull our way through opponent without any of their nuances. Although, I was pleasantly surprised watching Betts - he has a bright future. So I agree with you there - the Greco quandary is not solely due to the push-out. But if people were tired of the "Iowa-style bulldoze across the mat" before, wait until they got a heavy dose of that from every team. But the point is this, and is worth repeating - fix what goes on in the middle of the mat, and that will fix wrestling. The edge wrestling is Minuscule compared to what boring inaction happens in the middle where guys try to wear down each other with 2 minutes of hand-fighting.

 

 

Good points. I can't say I disagree. I'm not sure we're ever going to be able to change the "intent" of a wrester. Sure, we all wish there would be more scoring attacks and less handfighting.

 

I'm pretty much open to any idea, for or against, as long as the phrase "just call stalling properly" isn't uttered. I think that option has been tried, tried again, exhausted, reworked, and still has done nothing to increase activity OR as we're discussing here, the importance of actually staying on the mat. In fact, the more we address stalling, the less impact it has had on the sport in my opinion.

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FILA implemented the push-out rule after attending the NCAAs one year and seeing how much time was spent on the edge of the mat. Amazing that our perfect, wholesome and great folkstyle was very instrumental in FILA's changing of the rules.

 

 

Wow, and you believe that? I got bridges for sale, how many do you want? I'll put you down for three.

 

 

Real Pro Wrestling implemented the pushout in 2004. The shows aired in early 2005 and FILA added it - along with other sweeping rule changes - later that year. I don't recall NCAA wrestling having anything to do with it.

 

But the original point is valid. When the upcoming season begins try counting out of bounds restarts sometime. I've counted close to thirty in some high level college matches. For the fan that is like enduring "death by a thousand cuts".

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FILA implemented the push-out rule after attending the NCAAs one year and seeing how much time was spent on the edge of the mat. Amazing that our perfect, wholesome and great folkstyle was very instrumental in FILA's changing of the rules.

 

 

Wow, and you believe that? I got bridges for sale, how many do you want? I'll put you down for three.

I tend to believe what people high up on the ladder with FILA tell me. The person had no reason what-so-ever to fib on something like this.

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If stalling was called properly (Mills/Gonzales scored near 30 points combined, yet each got a stall warning) this wouldn't be an issue. Part of good offense is being able to finish in bounds. Perhaps we should penalize a wrestler who allows the opponent to get OB when he's got a single up and can't keep the action in? Same as a push out, nobody has gained control.

 

 

If I just had a dollar for every time this phrase it uttered on a folkstyle wrestling board, I wouldn't have to work anymore.

 

Response to bottom line: I agree wholeheartedly. But if your opponent wont' stay in the wrestling area, then what are we back to? Let me guess -- "just call stalling properly"...

 

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I understand your sincere attempt at suggesting something to try in order to improve the sport. I just think the push out is fundamentally flawed. You trade the possibility of avoiding being scored upon because action winds up OB before control is gained for the certainty that with no gain of control scoring can still occur simply because of the location of a footprint.

 

You'd be rich with a dollar/call stalling, but I wouldn't be a pauper if I got a dollar/just add a push out solution.

 

"But if your opponent wont' stay in the wrestling area, then what are we back to? Let me guess -- "just call stalling properly"...".

No, while I admit to "politely requesting" a stall call from the official at times, my admonishment to the wrestler is to keep the opponent in, gain control both of him and the area, open your eyes, don't take him out, have mat awareness. Control both what the opponent can do and where he can do it. That is the control that should be rewarded.

Let's not provide incentive/reward for someone intentionally causing the action to leave the wrestling area. Sumo. Perhaps I'm wrong but I'm sure that's what will happen just like how the leg cinch was supposed to so unfair that no one would let it get to that (ie: we wouldn't likely have contrived positions given to wrestlers who were unable to secure them through actual wrestling).

 

Changing the fundamental ways to score/win, which for over a century has been by control or penalty, to include a measure of hopscotch is dangerous. After 50 years in wrestling I quit following the intl styles other than to check headlines on occasion. It is no longer the sport I use to admire. (The introduction of jello would not shock me)

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That's the exception not the rule and making rules based upon extreme examples is a foolish practice at best.

 

 

 

If you think what we have is bad just impliment the push out and you'll end up with ear-to-ear circle fests that nobody can watch.

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Nothing is perfect but to impliment a foolish rule because a small minority of people don't like one correctable aspect of a sport is just beyond rediculous.

 

Imagine if the NFL decided to reduce concussions by removing all protective gear? It would stop helmet to hemlet hits but imagine the number of other serious injuries that wil occure. I know this is a bit of an extreme example but the point is still the same.

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Nothing is perfect but to impliment a foolish rule because a small minority of people don't like one correctable aspect of a sport is just beyond rediculous.

 

Imagine if the NFL decided to reduce concussions by removing all protective gear? It would stop helmet to hemlet hits but imagine the number of other serious injuries that wil occure. I know this is a bit of an extreme example but the point is still the same.

 

I guess I forgot how wrestling is the only sport where an athlete is superior position and ready to score is penalized when his opponent goes out of bounds. It would be like in the NFL if a player is about to score a touchdown, but a defensive player steps out of bounds they play is stopped. I would love to see in football how exciting that would be!

 

Find me a sport where a defensive athlete can stop an offensive player from scoring just by going out of bounds. I have yet to ever think of one.

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Unless a wrestler is going to run into a table, chair, or completely off the mat a defensive wrestler simply stepping out of bounds DOES NOT stop the offensive wrestler from scoring.

 

In college we see a great number of takedowns where the defensive wrestler is completely out of bounds and the offensive wrestler barely has any portion of the body inside the cylinder.

 

 

If the defensive wrestler does make that obvious of a move out of bounds to avoid being scored upon then fleeing the mat is the penalty which applies. If I recall correctly a couple of years ago Poetta had a fleeing call against him in the finals against Leen. It could have been a different match but it was a finals match and it cost him the title.

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Nothing is perfect but to impliment a foolish rule because a small minority of people don't like one correctable aspect of a sport is just beyond rediculous.

 

Imagine if the NFL decided to reduce concussions by removing all protective gear? It would stop helmet to hemlet hits but imagine the number of other serious injuries that wil occure. I know this is a bit of an extreme example but the point is still the same.

 

I guess I forgot how wrestling is the only sport where an athlete is superior position and ready to score is penalized when his opponent goes out of bounds. It would be like in the NFL if a player is about to score a touchdown, but a defensive player steps out of bounds they play is stopped. I would love to see in football how exciting that would be!

 

Find me a sport where a defensive athlete can stop an offensive player from scoring just by going out of bounds. I have yet to ever think of one.

 

 

Just like football a defensive wrestlerneeds to take the offensive man OB in order to stop action. And in wrestling there are sanctions (granted, inconsistently applied) when the OB move is to avoid wrestling, not a result of the wrestling action.

 

FB equivalent of push out is requiring all plays be completed in bounds, and a point is awarded to the team not stepping out first on a sideline play.

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Nothing is perfect but to impliment a foolish rule because a small minority of people don't like one correctable aspect of a sport is just beyond rediculous.

 

Imagine if the NFL decided to reduce concussions by removing all protective gear? It would stop helmet to hemlet hits but imagine the number of other serious injuries that wil occure. I know this is a bit of an extreme example but the point is still the same.

 

That is actually a legitimate suggestion. Players hit/tackled with much different technique before full body armor was used. Self preservation dictated as much. Far fewer deaths in boxing in the bare knuckle era, skull broke hands before hands got supported/protected.

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Unless a wrestler is going to run into a table, chair, or completely off the mat a defensive wrestler simply stepping out of bounds DOES NOT stop the offensive wrestler from scoring.

 

In college we see a great number of takedowns where the defensive wrestler is completely out of bounds and the offensive wrestler barely has any portion of the body inside the cylinder.

 

 

If the defensive wrestler does make that obvious of a move out of bounds to avoid being scored upon then fleeing the mat is the penalty which applies. If I recall correctly a couple of years ago Poetta had a fleeing call against him in the finals against Leen. It could have been a different match but it was a finals match and it cost him the title.

Why do we see so many takedowns on the edge of the mat? Possibly because that is where the wrestlers hang out most of the time. When I jump, hop, skip to the edge of the mat I make it a lot harder to be scored on. Is that strategy or stalling? Is that exciting or boring?

 

So basically if the defensive wrestler is a good actor he can get away with it. I am also glad that one time in the NCAA finals stalling was called. Don't mind when this year Oliver was under attack and high tailed it to the edge and didn't give up the points.

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Imagine how that would change football. We'd see a massive number of new injuries from people trying to avoid that point. You'd also only see full back runs up the middle and passes to tight ends. Field goals and punting would be more important like it was back in the 30's.

 

 

On the other hand we wouldn't see as many clock stopages and the games would be done in less than three hours.

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Unless a wrestler is going to run into a table, chair, or completely off the mat a defensive wrestler simply stepping out of bounds DOES NOT stop the offensive wrestler from scoring.

 

In college we see a great number of takedowns where the defensive wrestler is completely out of bounds and the offensive wrestler barely has any portion of the body inside the cylinder.

 

 

If the defensive wrestler does make that obvious of a move out of bounds to avoid being scored upon then fleeing the mat is the penalty which applies. If I recall correctly a couple of years ago Poetta had a fleeing call against him in the finals against Leen. It could have been a different match but it was a finals match and it cost him the title.

Why do we see so many takedowns on the edge of the mat? Possibly because that is where the wrestlers hang out most of the time. When I jump, hop, skip to the edge of the mat I make it a lot harder to be scored on. Is that strategy or stalling? Is that exciting or boring?

 

So basically if the defensive wrestler is a good actor he can get away with it. I am also glad that one time in the NCAA finals stalling was called. Don't mind when this year Oliver was under attack and high tailed it to the edge and didn't give up the points.

 

I pointed out a fleeing call not a stalling call, there is quite a bit of difference. Stalling is not improving your position and fleeing is intentionally going out of bounds to avoid being scored upon.

 

Being a good actor has nothing to do with it. The rules are what they are and everybody will use them to their best advantage. That is the nature of every sport.

 

Again I say if you impliment a push-out you will end up with an ear-to-ear circle fest.

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