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tirapell

Push-out rule in folkstyle?

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One of the issues I have with the push out is the lack of standard mat size. Some tournaments use small mats while some duals use huge mats.

 

On the flip side, I do get annoyed when tournaments put mats along walls and wrestlers can't wrestler to their fullest on one side of the mat, as a result.

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On the single leg, your head is inside. Be careful on the inside arm on how you post. You'll see many wrestlers reach for the far knee, this is a major mistake. I know I was wrestling in the Ark Valley League tournament against the guy who'd been 2nd in state the year before. I did an outside leg standup, he hooked my ankle and reached for the far knee. I underhooked him, reached around his head and threw him on his back. Had him pinned as the whistle blew. 3rd period he dropped on my ankle and wrapped both arms around it as tightly as possible. No stalling in those days, I lost on riding time. So you just throw your inside arm straight forward keeping your elbow in, and take your heel to your butt as your drive forward.

 

On the double leg, Port Robertson wanted your head on the opposite side of the trip leg. Stan Abel said he found out that it didn't matter for him, he just kept driving forward until he got the trip.

 

Just to clarify here: regardless of which side his head is on, the attacker has to drive the defender's weight over the leg that has been backheeled, right?

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Correct, you drive him over the backheel trip, this can be to finish a takedown, or to go into a Navy ride if you are in top.

 

I try to explain to kids the "physics" of wrestling. You either drive him over his base, or pull him over his base to score a takedown. Ankle picks, backheel trips you are forcing his upper body backwards, because he can't move his base he falls down. Running the pipe pulling down on the hip makes him fall down, because you have his foot in the air. I really try to teach kids who've stepped on a wrestling npmat for the first time how the human body works. I show them several different things that can cause a wrestler to go to his back. Then its stance, motion, penetration steps, counters, and finishes. When they understand how the body reacts to certain things they learn to try to get into those positions in a scramble situation, because they understand they have an advantage.

 

I'd still like to try a shot clock in wrestling, i would silently do it in matches when i refereed. I would brief wrestlers and coaches how i'd call stalling. Kids wrestled more aggressively because they knew i would call someone fir stalling if after 30 seconds of real attempt to score. I worked a lot harder as a ref, and the fans really got into the marches because of the action.

 

Love the photos on guys trying to get out of bounds, really helps Adam's proposal.

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esposito_fro.jpg

 

 

Man I love this. Look at that facial expression. He wants the ref to do something. Maybe he's used to freestyle, where the refs get involved with the wrestling and start grabbing wrists and slapping guys during the action!

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Imagine if the NFL decided to reduce concussions by removing all protective gear? It would stop helmet to hemlet hits but imagine the number of other serious injuries that wil occure. I know this is a bit of an extreme example but the point is still the same.

 

You mean like Rugby???

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Correct, you drive him over the backheel trip, this can be to finish a takedown, or to go into a Navy ride if you are in top.

 

I try to explain to kids the "physics" of wrestling. You either drive him over his base, or pull him over his base to score a takedown. Ankle picks, backheel trips you are forcing his upper body backwards, because he can't move his base he falls down. Running the pipe pulling down on the hip makes him fall down, because you have his foot in the air. I really try to teach kids who've stepped on a wrestling npmat for the first time how the human body works. I show them several different things that can cause a wrestler to go to his back. Then its stance, motion, penetration steps, counters, and finishes. When they understand how the body reacts to certain things they learn to try to get into those positions in a scramble situation, because they understand they have an advantage.

 

I'd still like to try a shot clock in wrestling, i would silently do it in matches when i refereed. I would brief wrestlers and coaches how i'd call stalling. Kids wrestled more aggressively because they knew i would call someone fir stalling if after 30 seconds of real attempt to score. I worked a lot harder as a ref, and the fans really got into the marches because of the action.

 

Love the photos on guys trying to get out of bounds, really helps Adam's proposal.

 

Not a fan of "shot clocks" in wrestling. I've had many refs who use this method or "count shots" as a way to call stalling. Most want to talk to my teams before matches to let them know how they'll call it, which I decline. There are many, many ways to score without blindly ripping off shots at the beginning of every period. The best wrestlers in the world (Russians, Iranians) may only shoot once or twice a match, but make it count when they do. Nothing causes kids to become less aggressive than forcing them to flail at their opponents because some ref thinks it is the only thing that amounts to offense. The idea that we need to force kids to shoot, whether a legitimate opportunity or not is a horrible idea, imo.

 

I'm all for the push out, however. It forces kids to wrestle in the middle and keeps refs judgement calls to a minimum - best of both worlds.

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Personally, I like the push out rule or some similar version of it. It keeps the majority of the action in the center of the mat. Puts a premium on good handfighting and controlling ties, standing in front of your opponent and fighting.

 

I would really like to see it done somewhere as a trial. Obviously the athletes wouldn't be used to it so it wouldn't look like it would after being in place for awhile but would be interesting.

 

 

Some thoughts on other stuff I've read in this thread:

 

We will miss out on all that great action that happens at the edge of the mat when someone is in on a shot and tryin to finish the takedown. - I think you will still have a lot of that action, just not at the edge but before the edge. Someone is in on a shot and the other guy is trying to avoid the TD and also avoid the OB (push out). I can see some great scrambles happening in the center of the mat because there isn't that bailout of OB that actually limits the movement to only a couple directions because if you go one way, it's OB.

 

Guys will just get a single, stand up with it and run the other guy OB for pushout. - For the fans of funk, the pushout rule could be great. Someone gets the single in the air and goes for the pushout point and you'll see some funk happening. If that was happening to me, I would probably be diving between the legs and looking to funk out of the single and create my own action. You don't see that in freestyle because it's a lot better to give up the 1 than to take a chance on giving up an exposure by creating an odd position. Don't have to worry about the exposure in folkstyle so I doubt you see guys just getting run OB in that manner. Could be pretty exciting and I'm guessing that after a while, the offensive guy won't be just trying to run a guy out if he's in that good of position but trying to create a solid finish in the middle to avoid the funk.

 

It will just become a sumo match. - You can't just bullrush a guy and push him OB. He's going to use your momentum against you and launch you or slide by so you go OB. Like someone said, check out the one situation in Varner's match. This is something we work on with even our 8-10 year old kids. If a kid tries to just push you OB without using good technique, then take that opportunity to log him some frequent flyer miles and launch him. We work on a couple of specific throws from that situation. And the converse is also true. If you're close to OB and can't just push your way back to the center of the mat or face the possibility of your opponent throwing you. I could see some real exciting throws happening near the OB line. You already see some nice stuff in freestyle but without the threat of exposure, maybe more in folkstyle.

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Just got back from the OU wrestling picnic. Wayne Well, Jeff Callard, and me were discussing the rules changes in both freestyle and folkstyle we've all seen over the past 45 years, and our knowledge of rules prior to that.

 

Wayne is of the opinion that if you step on the line it should be a point. He'd like to see a return to the 3-3-3 minutes he wrestled under in college. However, he said he'd be in favor of a 1-minute break between periods. This would allow coaches to actually do some real coaching during the match. Also gives fans time run to the restroom or concession stand. He says it takes longer for him to drive from NW OKC to Norman and back, than the actual dual meet takes.

 

Jeff said no matter what changes you make, it won't make a big difference in the total fan base. Wrestling requires more knowledge, than fans know if the basketball goes thru the hoop someone scored.

 

Wayne would like to see a little bit of the brutality brought back. He said the reason some schools have large dual meet attendance is their fans go to see their guys beat the snot out of the other team's guys. It is not because they actually know who is wrestling. This is why the NCAA tournament sells out, but the world team trials draws flies. Only the Olympics gets the average fan's interest.

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Guys will just get a single, stand up with it and run the other guy OB for pushout. - For the fans of funk, the pushout rule could be great. Someone gets the single in the air and goes for the pushout point and you'll see some funk happening. If that was happening to me, I would probably be diving between the legs and looking to funk out of the single and create my own action. You don't see that in freestyle because it's a lot better to give up the 1 than to take a chance on giving up an exposure by creating an odd position. Don't have to worry about the exposure in folkstyle so I doubt you see guys just getting run OB in that manner. Could be pretty exciting and I'm guessing that after a while, the offensive guy won't be just trying to run a guy out if he's in that good of position but trying to create a solid finish in the middle to avoid the funk.

 

Wrestlers will not just push a guy out in that situation. They will go for the takedown because it is worth 2 points compared to the 1 point for a pushout. In freestyle the pushout equals the takedown so they would rather just take the guy out of bounds. Plus in freestyle even if you get the takedown the bottom guy can get out of bounds to put them back neutral. This also does not happen in folkstyle as you will be on top until you give up an escape or reversal.

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I really enjoyed watching the Freestyle action. I do think the pushout rule helped it. Not a fan of the ball grab or seperate periods, but do like the tilt calls and think that would make folk style wrestling much more fun for the fan. I also think the matches should be shorter. I really do not enjoy a 10-4 match at nationals or a 3-1 match that has one takedown and two escapes in seven minutes. Why focus so much on conditioning as these are student athletes and not just athletes.

 

These rules would stop the boring pushing without action with the other guy backing away. Both guys would have to wrestle. Just pushing would not get a stalling call, you would have to take a shot.

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Guys will just get a single, stand up with it and run the other guy OB for pushout. - For the fans of funk, the pushout rule could be great. Someone gets the single in the air and goes for the pushout point and you'll see some funk happening. If that was happening to me, I would probably be diving between the legs and looking to funk out of the single and create my own action. You don't see that in freestyle because it's a lot better to give up the 1 than to take a chance on giving up an exposure by creating an odd position. Don't have to worry about the exposure in folkstyle so I doubt you see guys just getting run OB in that manner. Could be pretty exciting and I'm guessing that after a while, the offensive guy won't be just trying to run a guy out if he's in that good of position but trying to create a solid finish in the middle to avoid the funk.

 

Wrestlers will not just push a guy out in that situation. They will go for the takedown because it is worth 2 points compared to the 1 point for a pushout. In freestyle the pushout equals the takedown so they would rather just take the guy out of bounds. Plus in freestyle even if you get the takedown the bottom guy can get out of bounds to put them back neutral. This also does not happen in folkstyle as you will be on top until you give up an escape or reversal.

 

 

I agree with you 100% there, I was just making a comment on something someone had said earlier that we wouldn't see any takedowns, they would just run them OB for the pushout point.

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Part of the problem that I have with people wanting to make the pushout rule the standard is that for some reason they believe that it will make us better and more competitve in freestyle and I don't thnk there is anything that would support that.

 

I see less offense when it comes to freestyle not more, especially at the edge of the mat. Guys get a leg and instead of attempting a finish they push the guy out of bounds. If there was a pushout rule put in effect I would favor a penalty for the offensive guy that just pushes as guy out instead of attempting a finish.

 

We don't reward the top guy for pushing a guy out of bounds as the bottom guy has done his job of getting to his feet for an escape so why reward an offensive guy on his feet with points without securing a takedown?

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Part of the problem that I have with people wanting to make the pushout rule the standard is that for some reason they believe that it will make us better and more competitve in freestyle and I don't thnk there is anything that would support that.

 

I see less offense when it comes to freestyle not more, especially at the edge of the mat. Guys get a leg and instead of attempting a finish they push the guy out of bounds. If there was a pushout rule put in effect I would favor a penalty for the offensive guy that just pushes as guy out instead of attempting a finish.

 

We don't reward the top guy for pushing a guy out of bounds as the bottom guy has done his job of getting to his feet for an escape so why reward an offensive guy on his feet with points without securing a takedown?

 

I think you're missing a few things. If you're referring to the Olympics, that's world level competition. It's harder to score. The other thing is, the periods are short and thus very little room for error. I believe that contributes more to lack of offense than the push-out rule.

 

Also, it's a lot harder to get a leg and push a guy out than you're giving credit. In fact, it might be harder yet in folkstyle where the defensive wrestler can expose their back without loss of points. If you're going to punish an offensive wrestler with penalties, then you're going to see a new low in offensive output in folkstyle wrestling.

 

Taking risk should be rewarded. I personally don't feel we have an adequate risk/reward system in place right now. The balance is shifted toward the defensive wrestler (using the out-of-bounds, stalemates, potentially dangerous, etc) and we put the onus on the referee to make it even. Reward offense and you'll see more of it.

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the rules in freestyle are designed to award offense right now but how many matches end 1-0, 1-0. Yes I know that skill level is higher but I know personally many of the "high level" coaches are teaching guys to score 1 point takedowns and do nothing for the rest of the period and win like that. They also teach when in the "danger zone" (im showing my age :) to look for a pushout and not solid leg attacks.

 

How come more coaches are not advocating for how the rules used to be in the '90s (?). If you start a offensive move in bounds and finish out of bounds then you still score. I think that would be more beneficial than the "toe" in bounds rule as it is today.

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Part of the problem that I have with people wanting to make the pushout rule the standard is that for some reason they believe that it will make us better and more competitve in freestyle and I don't thnk there is anything that would support that.

 

I see less offense when it comes to freestyle not more, especially at the edge of the mat. Guys get a leg and instead of attempting a finish they push the guy out of bounds. If there was a pushout rule put in effect I would favor a penalty for the offensive guy that just pushes as guy out instead of attempting a finish.

 

We don't reward the top guy for pushing a guy out of bounds as the bottom guy has done his job of getting to his feet for an escape so why reward an offensive guy on his feet with points without securing a takedown?

 

The reason a wrestler doesn't go for a takedown vs a pushout in freestyle is simply because they are worth the same amount of points. In folkstyle they would more than likely try to finish the takedown so that they would get DOUBLE the points plus be able to ride and turn for as long as they hold their opponent down.

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We can't control what FILA does but we can control folkstyle and starting a move in bounds and finishing out of bounds in most cases would result in the offensive guy scoring a takedown in folkstyle or a 1 point pushout in freestyle. The result I believe will be more offense not less.

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We can't control what FILA does but we can control folkstyle and starting a move in bounds and finishing out of bounds in most cases would result in the offensive guy scoring a takedown in folkstyle or a 1 point pushout in freestyle. The result I believe will be more offense not less.

 

In most cases in folkstyle it results in the offensive person getting zero points. This is why we are having this discussion. A superior wrestler can be neutralized if their opponent is savvy on the edge of the mat.

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the rules in freestyle are designed to award offense right now but how many matches end 1-0, 1-0. Yes I know that skill level is higher but I know personally many of the "high level" coaches are teaching guys to score 1 point takedowns and do nothing for the rest of the period and win like that. They also teach when in the "danger zone" (im showing my age :) to look for a pushout and not solid leg attacks.

 

Everyone keeps referring to these 1-0, 1-0 matches in freestyle, yet you do realize that in such a match (which would only last 4 minutes), the rate of scoring is higher than what we see in many college matches? Those two points could be from takedowns, in which case the winning wrestler scored two in 4 minutes. Obviously we're ignoring the ball grab BS because I don't count those as points. But in college, how many matches go like this......1st period scoreless, 2nd period escape and then scoreless, 3rd period escape and then one guy gets a takedown to win the match 3-1? Sure some matches are higher scoring, but many NCAA matches only have one takedown in them, which makes a 4 minute freestyle match with a score of 1-0, 1-0, not look that bad. Burroughs won by that score in the Olympic finals, and had two very exciting takedowns in that match.

 

And although scoring one takedown and then doing nothing may be a strategy in freestyle, it all depends on how much time is left in the period, and this is because of the unique format with best 2 of 3. Guys aren't going to take unnecessary risks towards the end of a period if they are winning. That said, a 1-0 lead is actually pretty dangerous to sit on if there's too much time on the clock, because if your opponent scores he wins the period. Many high level coaches actually advocate scoring 2 points in the period if possible before you sit on your lead, unless there's less than 30 seconds left in which case just sit on your 1 point lead. In any event, that's all irrelevant to college because its specific to the best 2 of 3 system. The pushout by itself would not bring this to college wrestling.

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People also fail to comprehend that we are talking about the best of the best wrestlers in the world where an eyelash separates the top 15. One miscalculation and you are behind in a match and possibly losing the match and done for the tournament. This isn't David Taylor vs. a random NCAA opponent.

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