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tirapell

Push-out rule in folkstyle?

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To me this conversation is less about if the matches should be longer or if how good the competition is. I personally don't think going to a pushout rule in folkstyle will increase our international success and in the situation that we are going out of bounds in folkstyle will we put rules in places that will esentially make us less offensive?

 

 

I know that many people want to take the work out of the refs hands but I think we have to hold the refs to a high standard to get it right...If the guy defensive guy is circle out of bounds it is not stalling, If he is walking backwards out then he is. Funny thing is guys make the adjustment pretty easy when they wrestle freestyle and when they go back to folkstyle they are getting pushed out. MAKE THE CALL REFS!

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To me this conversation is less about if the matches should be longer or if how good the competition is. I personally don't think going to a pushout rule in folkstyle will increase our international success and in the situation that we are going out of bounds in folkstyle will we put rules in places that will esentially make us less offensive?

 

 

I know that many people want to take the work out of the refs hands but I think we have to hold the refs to a high standard to get it right...If the guy defensive guy is circle out of bounds it is not stalling, If he is walking backwards out then he is. Funny thing is guys make the adjustment pretty easy when they wrestle freestyle and when they go back to folkstyle they are getting pushed out. MAKE THE CALL REFS!

Calling stalling is more than just if a guy backs out or "circles" out of bounds. Basically what you are saying is if I don't want to be dinged for stalling I can just make it look like I am "circling" out of bounds. Hence the reasoning behind a need for a step-out rule.

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Yes that is the way the rule is written. Nothing is perfect...there is some subjectivity to how to implement a push-out.

 

Most would want it very similar to the way it is called in FS/GR which has very little subjectivity. It is probably the simplest form of scoring for someone to understand.

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Two years ago, I would have been militant about a Folk pushout rule. Now, I would classify myself as skeptical about it.

 

1st issue) Unintended consequences. I don't buy the "if you are not changing, you are falling behind" argument. Change for change's sake is not a recipe for enhancing our sport. We can't envision how this would impact our sport fully. Adaption would take place, but it would continue for a long time and we would not know the full implication for many years. Think about it this way: Current wrestlers still hold their former physically learned biases from the rule set they grew up in. What happens when kids who have only known a certain rule set get to the senior level? This is how I will evaluate the sweeping changes to FS from 2005 - when the intl kids who started wrestling after that change get to the Sr. level. Take that to the next level - when those kids start coaching? That said, I think experimentation at preseason tournaments is a good idea for any proposed rule change, but the results can not fully be comprehended from a couple of tournaments.

 

2nd issue) How do you handle an actual takedowns where the finish lands out of bounds? Is it awarded 1 or 2, can back points be counted? I don't see a perfect solution to this.

 

3rd issue) Subjectivity of simultaneous-touch. Is out of bounds a hand, head, foot, shoulder, elbow? What happens when both wrestlers land out at the same time (like from a whizzer situation)? I may not be militant about pushout, but put video replay in college wrestling and I'll go freakin nuts. The matches would be 20 minutes long with half of it trying to get the video working. Exposure in freestyle frustrates me because of the subjectivity of any counter resulting in exposure of both wrestlers, and I feel the simo-touch brings that into folk.

 

4th issue) I think sometimes we try to fix the wrong problem by not understanding what the problem is. We want 3-1 matches to be more exciting, but more often than not, both wrestlers are complicit in these matches that have little activity. You see this in freestyle often too (at the highest level) - neither wrestlers is interested in initiating the action and you get a ball draw. Push-outs will not fix this problem. Conversely, there are plenty of low scoring matches that are very exciting. Attack/counter offense/counter defense is amazing to watch for the spectator. If the result isn't a score, I still appreciate the skill and fortitude. If these chains resulted in a step-out for one point, we would all feel cheated.

 

My current thought is we will always have to endure some low scoring, low activity matches in wrestling - regardless of the rule set. I think our mission as ambassadors of the sport should be to promote more aggressive styles in the wrestling room that leaves kids confident in secondary and tertiary counter situations so they feel more free to attack. At the college level today, I feel that we have a generation of wrestlers who are role models for this aggressive attitude. Let's make sure the next generation follows in their footsteps.

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Two years ago, I would have been militant about a Folk pushout rule. Now, I would classify myself as skeptical about it.

 

1st issue) Unintended consequences. I don't buy the "if you are not changing, you are falling behind" argument. Change for change's sake is not a recipe for enhancing our sport. We can't envision how this would impact our sport fully. Adaption would take place, but it would continue for a long time and we would not know the full implication for many years. Think about it this way: Current wrestlers still hold their former physically learned biases from the rule set they grew up in. What happens when kids who have only known a certain rule set get to the senior level? This is how I will evaluate the sweeping changes to FS from 2005 - when the intl kids who started wrestling after that change get to the Sr. level. Take that to the next level - when those kids start coaching? That said, I think experimentation at preseason tournaments is a good idea for any proposed rule change, but the results can not fully be comprehended from a couple of tournaments.

 

2nd issue) How do you handle an actual takedowns where the finish lands out of bounds? Is it awarded 1 or 2, can back points be counted? I don't see a perfect solution to this.

 

3rd issue) Subjectivity of simultaneous-touch. Is out of bounds a hand, head, foot, shoulder, elbow? What happens when both wrestlers land out at the same time (like from a whizzer situation)? I may not be militant about pushout, but put video replay in college wrestling and I'll go freakin nuts. The matches would be 20 minutes long with half of it trying to get the video working. Exposure in freestyle frustrates me because of the subjectivity of any counter resulting in exposure of both wrestlers, and I feel the simo-touch brings that into folk.

 

4th issue) I think sometimes we try to fix the wrong problem by not understanding what the problem is. We want 3-1 matches to be more exciting, but more often than not, both wrestlers are complicit in these matches that have little activity. You see this in freestyle often too (at the highest level) - neither wrestlers is interested in initiating the action and you get a ball draw. Push-outs will not fix this problem. Conversely, there are plenty of low scoring matches that are very exciting. Attack/counter offense/counter defense is amazing to watch for the spectator. If the result isn't a score, I still appreciate the skill and fortitude. If these chains resulted in a step-out for one point, we would all feel cheated.

 

My current thought is we will always have to endure some low scoring, low activity matches in wrestling - regardless of the rule set. I think our mission as ambassadors of the sport should be to promote more aggressive styles in the wrestling room that leaves kids confident in secondary and tertiary counter situations so they feel more free to attack. At the college level today, I feel that we have a generation of wrestlers who are role models for this aggressive attitude. Let's make sure the next generation follows in their footsteps.

 

Ching,

 

Respectfully, I think you've gone off topic a bit. This whole thread really isn't about making matches more exciting. That's up to the two wrestlers. All we (ie. the rules) can do is allow both wrestlers the opportunity to score throughout the match.

 

The thread is about our sport putting far too much onus on the official to make sure both wrestlers remain in bounds. If two wrestlers want to stand around and wrestle a 2-1 match, that's their choice and a completely different topic. However, if one wrestler is actively trying to score and the other wrestler is using the out-of-bounds to avoid scores and having to wrestle, then that's where the problem lies. Or similarly, if both wrestlers are trying to score but every time one wrestler gets in on an attack, the other wrestler uses the out-of-bounds to prevent the score, we are all cheated of 'wrestling' in the way that it was intended.

 

Bottom line, the out-of-bounds should not be part of the defensive strategy. It should be a "no-fly" zone and if you go out of bounds, you are punnished, not rewarded.

 

The rest of the details would have to be worked out but seem like the trees, rather than the forest.

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Two years ago, I would have been militant about a Folk pushout rule. Now, I would classify myself as skeptical about it.

 

1st issue) Unintended consequences. I don't buy the "if you are not changing, you are falling behind" argument. Change for change's sake is not a recipe for enhancing our sport. We can't envision how this would impact our sport fully. Adaption would take place, but it would continue for a long time and we would not know the full implication for many years. Think about it this way: Current wrestlers still hold their former physically learned biases from the rule set they grew up in. What happens when kids who have only known a certain rule set get to the senior level? This is how I will evaluate the sweeping changes to FS from 2005 - when the intl kids who started wrestling after that change get to the Sr. level. Take that to the next level - when those kids start coaching? That said, I think experimentation at preseason tournaments is a good idea for any proposed rule change, but the results can not fully be comprehended from a couple of tournaments.

 

[highlight=#ff0000]The change would be for two reasons[/highlight]

[highlight=#ff0000]1. Safety of the wrestlers[/highlight]

[highlight=#ff0000]2. To help ease the pressure on the ref to call stalling or fleeing the mat calls[/highlight]

 

2nd issue) How do you handle an actual takedowns where the finish lands out of bounds? Is it awarded 1 or 2, can back points be counted? I don't see a perfect solution to this.

 

[highlight=#ff0000]On the mat wrestling would not have a step out point just as in fs/gr[/highlight]

[highlight=#ff0000]Back points are not counted right now if you are out of bounds, and no change here[/highlight]

 

3rd issue) Subjectivity of simultaneous-touch. Is out of bounds a hand, head, foot, shoulder, elbow? What happens when both wrestlers land out at the same time (like from a whizzer situation)? I may not be militant about pushout, but put video replay in college wrestling and I'll go freakin nuts. The matches would be 20 minutes long with half of it trying to get the video working. Exposure in freestyle frustrates me because of the subjectivity of any counter resulting in exposure of both wrestlers, and I feel the simo-touch brings that into folk.

 

[highlight=#ff0000]The rule would state a supporting point, head, hand, foot, shoulder, butt[/highlight]

[highlight=#ff0000]Two options[/highlight]

[highlight=#ff0000]1. The ref can give no points[/highlight]

[highlight=#ff0000]2. The ref could give the point to who they think stepped out first[/highlight]

 

4th issue) I think sometimes we try to fix the wrong problem by not understanding what the problem is. We want 3-1 matches to be more exciting, but more often than not, both wrestlers are complicit in these matches that have little activity. You see this in freestyle often too (at the highest level) - neither wrestlers is interested in initiating the action and you get a ball draw. Push-outs will not fix this problem. Conversely, there are plenty of low scoring matches that are very exciting. Attack/counter offense/counter defense is amazing to watch for the spectator. If the result isn't a score, I still appreciate the skill and fortitude. If these chains resulted in a step-out for one point, we would all feel cheated.

 

[highlight=#ff0000]See Tirapell's post[/highlight]

 

My current thought is we will always have to endure some low scoring, low activity matches in wrestling - regardless of the rule set. I think our mission as ambassadors of the sport should be to promote more aggressive styles in the wrestling room that leaves kids confident in secondary and tertiary counter situations so they feel more free to attack. At the college level today, I feel that we have a generation of wrestlers who are role models for this aggressive attitude. Let's make sure the next generation follows in their footsteps.

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2nd issue) How do you handle an actual takedowns where the finish lands out of bounds? Is it awarded 1 or 2, can back points be counted? I don't see a perfect solution to this.

 

 

The way I envision it - if it is continuous action of a TD that is initiated in bounds but the TD is finished OB (toes in or whatever would get you a TD awarded under current rules - no finishing completely OB for safety reasons), it is 2 points. If a TD is not completed and they went OB, it is 1 point.

 

Not sure how back points comes into this but it would be like it is now. If you're OB, no back points.

 

Also, if this were to come into play in folkstyle, I think having the zone like in FS/GR would be nice as it is easier for the competitors to know where they are at on the mat. But, that wouldn't HAVE to happen.

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