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Is Flo Growing Wrestling?

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3 minutes ago, Molsen said:

So flo helped someone previously a fan/wrestler, watch more wrestling. You already were "in" thats not growing the sport. As for not watching for 15 years, thats more on you.

How many guys finished high school/college wrestling and never watched and followed it after because there was no access before flo? I probably would be following football, baseball or whatever now but I do not. It allowed me to stay interested in my passion and pass that passion on to those around me because it makes wrestling more accessible. Stopping the attrition is part of growing the sport. 

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25 minutes ago, Molsen said:

People saying that "these other things arent free" dont seem to get it. To actually grow the sport you need non fans to watch. Non-fans arent going to pay for flo, but could potentially watch on something they are already paying for anyways. That was what the restricting access comment meant. That it would be better on tv, for growing the sport. 

Flo makes it easier for fans to watch. Non-fans arent going to pay a flo subscription just cause.

 

And non fans aren't gonna watching a replay of the Penn State-Ohio State dual at 2 AM on a Thursday either. When do you think ESPN would be showing wrestling if they did? 

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6 minutes ago, LHN94 said:

You have poor reading comprehension. The point still stands. 

Internet rule #2,943. I can make any sarcastic comment I wish, regardless of your points, if I find it humorous. The target poster's inability to get or understand the humor is not a factor in the application of rule #2943. 

Edited by Zebra

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2 minutes ago, ptz305 said:

How does an increase in Fargo participation indicate growth in wrestling when overall participation is down slightly? Where is the link between Fargo numbers and growth of the sport? Isn't it also true that NHSCA Nationals participation is down as a result of Flo creating a direct competitor for this tournament? 

How have Flo's financial contributions created growth in the sport? What data do you have to support this? Again, where is the link between paying someone money and achieving growth?

Neither one of your premises supports the conclusion that Flo is growing wrestling. There is no link between these details and the notion that Flo has grown the sport. Your third point is a pretty bad attempt to shift the burden of proof back to me. Truth is, no one knows or could ever know. That in itself is not a defense or argument for how flow is growing the sport. 

It seems like many of you are attributing the availability of content on the web to the rise of Flo when they could be more appropriate attributed to the rise of the internet, Wi-Fi, social media, and camera phones. Truth is, everything is more available on the web then it was 10 years ago. Even so, there is no link that would suggest this increased content has led to growth in the sport. 

2

you don't see how Fargo participation being up is growth of the sport? that's an odd take and I don't know how else to explain it. also lol at "How have Flo's financial contributions created growth in the sport?" I don't even know where to begin.

now, I am an employee of Flo, so please ignore my opinion and talk to the organizations we've partnered with, like USA Wrestling and the Big Ten Network and Oklahoma State. Talk to the tournaments like Super 32, the Souther Scuffle and the NHSCA (we just signed a new long contract with them) and ask them if we're helping them grow. Ask the senior level athletes who we've paid to come down here to austin and shoot videos and for technique. talk to the fans who get more matches, more articles, more videos and more documentaries to watch then ever before. 

I apologize for whatever Flo did to trigger you so much but I hope you one day learn to forgive us. 

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1 minute ago, russelscout said:

How many guys finished high school/college wrestling and never watched and followed it after because there was no access before flo? I probably would be following football, baseball or whatever now but I do not. It allowed me to stay interested in my passion and pass that passion on to those around me because it makes wrestling more accessible. Stopping the attrition is part of growing the sport. 

As a fan of the sport, you can still find ways to watch, but it does make it more convenient, which is why I subscribe. That being said, every fan that is not going to the ncaas, go to your local bar and convince them to put on wrestling. My brother did this and by the end everyone in the bar was watching. That would potentially grow the sport more then the flo website. (Now if they are going out and doing other things to grow the sport, idk about it) but the subscription based website isnt bringing in nonfans.

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29 minutes ago, Zebra said:

That act would be fanciful supposition with no basis in fact therefore totally irrelevant. You have no evidence, direct or circumstantial, that any D1 program's existence has been affected by Flo in any way, shape, or form.  

sure, don't take my word for it, talk to the coaches and ADs. there's also this

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1 minute ago, Molsen said:

As a fan of the sport, you can still find ways to watch, but it does make it more convenient, which is why I subscribe. That being said, every fan that is not going to the ncaas, go to your local bar and convince them to put on wrestling. My brother did this and by the end everyone in the bar was watching. That would potentially grow the sport more then the flo website. (Now if they are going out and doing other things to grow the sport, idk about it) but the subscription based website isnt bringing in nonfans.

I disagree. Those people that watched that night are one and done type of people. Theyre not suddenly going to start searching for the sport.

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1 minute ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

you don't see how Fargo participation being up is growth of the sport? that's an odd take and I don't know how else to explain it. also lol at "How have Flo's financial contributions created growth in the sport?" I don't even know where to begin.

now, I am an employee of Flo, so please ignore my opinion and talk to the organizations we've partnered with, like USA Wrestling and the Big Ten Network and Oklahoma State. Talk to the tournaments like Super 32, the Souther Scuffle and the NHSCA (we just signed a new long contract with them) and ask them if we're helping them grow. Ask the senior level athletes who we've paid to come down here to austin and shoot videos and for technique. talk to the fans who get more matches, more articles, more videos and more documentaries to watch then ever before. 

I apologize for whatever Flo did to trigger you so much but I hope you one day learn to forgive us. 

I will give flo this, they are probably helping guys who are already wrestling, dive more in. Which is why big time tournaments participation is up.

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Just now, BigTenFanboy said:

I disagree. Those people that watched that night are one and done type of people. Theyre not suddenly going to start searching for the sport.

Very possible, but you also could get an mma fan or something who sees nolf maul someone, and boom, new fans.

Not trying to bring in fans and new people into the sport wont help growth. But whatever.

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2 minutes ago, Molsen said:

the subscription based website isnt bringing in nonfans

Especially because the subscription is yearlong or nothing? Or exorbitant monthly price? [Flo pushes yearlong lock-in and so my assumption about monthlong being a thing may well be wrong.]

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Just now, Molsen said:

I will give flo this, they are probably helping guys who are already wrestling, dive more in. Which is why big time tournaments participation is up.

They're also helping people who WANT to watch it but couldn't in the past.

During the early 2000's i had to trade VHS tapes and DVDs online then wait weeks to see matches.

I know MANY people who stopped following the sport after high school but have tuned back in because of flo.

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1 minute ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

sure, don't take my word for it, talk to the coaches and ADs. there's also this

It is because of the internet not Flo specifically. I would say social media in general is more impact, but I have no evidence for that just as you have no evidence for your or other people's opinions.  

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3 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

They're also helping people who WANT to watch it but couldn't in the past.

During the early 2000's i had to trade VHS tapes and DVDs online then wait weeks to see matches.

I know MANY people who stopped following the sport after high school but have tuned back in because of flo.

And I know people that still follow along at local tournaments, that dont subscribe to flo. But your point was already addressed by someone else so??

Edited by Molsen

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1 minute ago, Molsen said:

And I know people that still follow along at local tournaments, that dont subscribe to flo. But your point was already addressed so??

The point is that it is growing the sport particularly at the higher level.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Just now, Zebra said:

It is because of the internet not Flo specifically. 

1

lol, come on. content and marketing of the sport doesn't just magically appear because of the internet and social media. you can't be serious.

look, there are innumerable factors that contribute to something as broad as "growing the sport of wrestling". Flo is one aspect of it. it's fine if you think we suck or are useless but let's not pretend high school participation being down and D1 programs folding is due to Flo not growing the sport. I wish we had that kind of power but alas. maybe one day. 

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Just now, Jaroslav Hasek said:

lol, come on. content and marketing of the sport doesn't just magically appear because of the internet and social media. you can't be serious.

look, there are innumerable factors that contribute to something as broad as "growing the sport of wrestling". Flo is one aspect of it. it's fine if you think we suck or are useless but let's not pretend high school participation being down and D1 programs folding is due to Flo not growing the sport. I wish we had that kind of power but alas. maybe one day. 

Its amazing to me how people can complain and bash a company for trying to provide content that these very people want to see. When I was a kid I would have died to have flo.

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Just now, BigTenFanboy said:

The point is that it is growing the sport.

Its not bring in new people, its keeping a small group who have already been in the sport here, which I'll admit, is part of it, but as zebra has already stated, with the internet, that was already going to be possible. Its not bringing in people, but since you already completed turned down introducing new people to the sport, my guess is you dont want that.

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Just now, Molsen said:

Its not bring in new people, its keeping a small group who have already been in the sport here, which I'll admit, is part of it, but as zebra has already stated, with the internet, that was already going to be possible. Its not bringing in people, but since you already completed turned down introducing new people to the sport, my guess is you dont want that.

No its not bringing in new people, but its exponentially extending their shelf life and involvement in the sport. Into a time in their lives when they are actually capable of generating money for the sport. Thats the definition of growing the sport. People stay involved longer while new younger fans start participating in the sport also becoming fans who will also grow into paying customers for a longer period of time.

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3 hours ago, ptz305 said:

This is something that was brought up numerous times in that other post. Throughout the argument, people keep tossing out the notion that Flo is growing the sport (and most seem to accept it). Flo specializes in covering both high school and Division 1 college wrestling in the United States. It is logical to assume that the groups they cover would be the ones benefiting. Let's look at a few numbers related to this topic. 

We will use 2006 as a starting date for Flo (https://www.flowrestling.org/video/5283642-martin-floreani-on-5-years-of-flowrestling

The number of high school participants (both genders) in 2006-2007 was 262,294 (http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatics/PDF/Participation Survey History Book.pdf). The number of participants for 2017-2018 was 262,126. (http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatistics/PDF/2017-18 High School Athletics Participation Survey.pdf). Though this is a slight loss, for discussion sake, we will say there is no difference in total participation. If you look at boys specifically though (Flo's primary focus), participation is actually down nearly 12,000 participants. For what it is worth, overall participation in high school athletics is up so the old "people are specializing now" is not factual either (https://www.nfhs.org/articles/high-school-sports-participation-increases-for-29th-consecutive-year/). 

The number of NCAA Division 1 wrestling programs is 75 (will be 78 in 2019-2020). However, since 2006 Eastern Michigan, Boise State, Grand Canyon, Boston U, Cal State Fullerton, UNCG, Liberty, UC Davis, Duquesne, Delaware State, Wagner, Portland State, Oregon, James Madison, Eastern Illinois and Slippery Rock have all dropped their programs (16 total).  Since 2006, Fresno State, Long Island Post, Presbyterian, and Arkansas Little Rock were added (4 total). During this time Cal-Baptist and SIUE transitioned to Division 1 and Augustana also announced they would be transitioning (3 total). Including the programs that have yet to take the mat (and assuming there are no additional drops before they transition), we are still down 8 D1 schools since 2006. This is a loss of 10%. 

When I think of "growing wrestling" in the US these are the two figures that come to mind - how many kids are wrestling and how is wrestling doing at major colleges. Each would indicate that Flo has had no effect on the growth of wrestling in the United States. Can anyone cite evidence that would suggest otherwise? 

Anything close to the same numbers over a ten year span has to be looked at as growth imo. The facts are that most high school sports are down numbers. With kids concentrating on one sport and kids just not participating in sports in general. Kids are lazier than ever before and barely leave there house, they play video games and talking on there phones. 

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12 minutes ago, Molsen said:

As a fan of the sport, you can still find ways to watch, but it does make it more convenient, which is why I subscribe. That being said, every fan that is not going to the ncaas, go to your local bar and convince them to put on wrestling. My brother did this and by the end everyone in the bar was watching. That would potentially grow the sport more then the flo website. (Now if they are going out and doing other things to grow the sport, idk about it) but the subscription based website isnt bringing in nonfans.

I doubt anyone in that bar goes home and becomes a huge fan. Do you really think thats the case? I have done the same thing. People became interested at the bar, and the next year I still had to convince the waitress to turn it on. It had no great long term impact. However if you create more diehards that can follow all the matches and stories that flo provides and that is passed down to the youth who also follows then you increase the base of fans. Is that not growing the sport?

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1 minute ago, BigTenFanboy said:

No its not bringing in new people, but its exponentially extending their shelf life and involvement in the sport. Into a time in their lives when they are actually capable of generating money for the sport. Thats the definition of growing the sport. People stay involved longer while new younger fans start participating in the sport also becoming fans who will also grow into paying customers for a longer period of time.

Again people still had access to the sport before flo, it just wasnt as convenient.  And with social media/youtube, all that access for those that left would still be there if they want to watch matches. 

You still have people that tune in that arent subscribed to flo, but you make it seem like thats impossible! (Again I have flo, and enjoy it, but it didnt keep me in the sport as I chose to stay involved and as a fan)

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Just now, Ogalthorpe Haywood said:

Anything close to the same numbers over a ten year span has to be looked at as growth imo. The facts are that most high school sports are down numbers. With kids concentrating on one sport and kids just not participating in sports in general. Kids are lazier than ever before and barely leave there house, they play video games and talking on there phones. 

I don't buy that kids are more lazy than ever. Maybe some, but specializations is the biggest problem for smaller sports. My nephews play all sports right now, however they also find a way to fit in baseball practices year round. They certainly are not lazy.

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3 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

No its not bringing in new people, but its exponentially extending their shelf life and involvement in the sport. Into a time in their lives when they are actually capable of generating money for the sport. Thats the definition of growing the sport. People stay involved longer while new younger fans start participating in the sport also becoming fans who will also grow into paying customers for a longer period of time.

Interesting take. Either way: Flo has room to clean up its act, raise its game. Reliability; professionalism; customer service; and, perhaps, pricing.

Flo proponents say Sesker, as a wresting-media person, ought to be tuning in -- not hearing alerts via text message. Flo detractors say streaming-content providers ought to provide streams that work well.

So much for "big boy sports" lol.

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4 minutes ago, Molsen said:

Again people still had access to the sport before flo, it just wasnt as convenient.  And with social media/youtube, all that access for those that left would still be there if they want to watch matches. 

You still have people that tune in that arent subscribed to flo, but you make it seem like thats impossible! (Again I have flo, and enjoy it, but it didnt keep me in the sport as I chose to stay involved and as a fan)

EXACTLY! Wasnt as convenient.

Convenience is a HUGE barrier to entry that you seem to want to ignore. 

Maybe you dont mind sifting and sorting through various sites to find wrestling content, but theres a large amount of people not willing to do that!

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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Just now, jon said:

Interesting take. Either way: Flo has room to clean up its act, raise its game. Reliability; professionalism; customer service; and, perhaps, pricing.

Flo proponents say Sesker, as a wresting-media person, ought to be tuning in -- not hearing alerts via text message. Flo detractors say streaming-content providers ought to provide streams that work well.

So much for "big boy sports" lol.

Absolutely. Flo definitely has room to grow and improve, no doubt about it. But to pretend that they're not playing their part in growing the sport is just plain idiotic.

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