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ptz305

Is Flo Growing Wrestling?

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I am new to the forum, but am a longtime lurker here. Here is a bit of background about me. I write for Missouriwrestling.com and Rock M Nation covering high school and college wrestling in Missouri. I am also a camera operator for the Mizzou Broadcast Network and run cameras fairly frequently for Mizzou wrestling broadcasts both produced by Mizzou and for ESPN + through Mizzou.

Now my take: Flo has a really solid business model. They certainly helped to make the sport more accessible. They do a good job of marketing the event and generally when one of Willie, CP,  Nomad, Bratke or Spey is on the call the announcing is really solid. (Fretwell and others have been entertaining as well).The Big Ten Network, ESPN + and in house productions by universities have made the sport more accessible to the general population as well. Missouri has honestly only maybe had one dual home or away that I could not find a way to watch all season. We are really living in a golden age for following the sport. I have a flopro account and ESPN + and can generally watch everything I would every want to. I am a big fan of Flo's documentary work and believe those/ the extensive rankings are worth the price before the streaming is even taken into account. Flo also turns out a ton of great articles. Nomad and Spey especially lately have turned out a ton of great content. I will say that Flo's streams do not always have the same level of quality as other streams in terms of camera work. That would be an area for Flo to work to improve in. That said Flowrestling is doing a great job in my opinion of showcasing the sport.

In terms of growing the sport, look at high school women's wrestling. Missouri just started a female state tournament this season and they have a huge turn out participation wise at a lot of schools. I think that women's wrestling in the NCAA (Perhaps under freestyle rules) is something that should be pushed for hard the next ten years or so, because it makes it easier to cultivate and add men's programs at the D1 and other levels if Women's programs can match the scholarship allotments to ease Title 9 concerns and share the same training space and equipment. Food for thought.

Edited by Sean Mael

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38 minutes ago, LemonPie said:

Love Flo’s content model, hate the FloArena database

Love Track’s database, hate their content model

 

this doesn’t really address the topic, I just felt like posting this 

no offense. Arena database has a ways to go. 100% agree.

i do, objectively, think arena's navigation is better though.

i'm not saying we're perfect; i'm not saying to bow down; i'm saying we're a valuable (most valuable) entity in wrestling. 

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1 minute ago, Husker_Du said:

no offense. Arena database has a ways to go. 100% agree.

i do, objectively, think arena's navigation is better though.

i'm not saying we're perfect; i'm not saying to bow down; i'm saying we're a valuable (most valuable) entity in wrestling. 

I find arena very hard to use on my phone. Especially when scrolling through the brackets.

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It was once said by many that MMA was going to grow the sport.  It did not.

Many people think girls/womens wrestling is going to save the sport.  It is not.

Flo is helping to make standouts stars which does lead to bigger paydays for those stars but Flo is not growing the sport.

Once upon a time in PA, when a HS head position you would see several applicants.  One is the new norm now.

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17 hours ago, ptz305 said:

This is something that was brought up numerous times in that other post. Throughout the argument, people keep tossing out the notion that Flo is growing the sport (and most seem to accept it). Flo specializes in covering both high school and Division 1 college wrestling in the United States. It is logical to assume that the groups they cover would be the ones benefiting. Let's look at a few numbers related to this topic. 

We will use 2006 as a starting date for Flo (https://www.flowrestling.org/video/5283642-martin-floreani-on-5-years-of-flowrestling

The number of high school participants (both genders) in 2006-2007 was 262,294 (http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatics/PDF/Participation Survey History Book.pdf). The number of participants for 2017-2018 was 262,126. (http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatistics/PDF/2017-18 High School Athletics Participation Survey.pdf). Though this is a slight loss, for discussion sake, we will say there is no difference in total participation. If you look at boys specifically though (Flo's primary focus), participation is actually down nearly 12,000 participants. For what it is worth, overall participation in high school athletics is up so the old "people are specializing now" is not factual either (https://www.nfhs.org/articles/high-school-sports-participation-increases-for-29th-consecutive-year/). 

The number of NCAA Division 1 wrestling programs is 75 (will be 78 in 2019-2020). However, since 2006 Eastern Michigan, Boise State, Grand Canyon, Boston U, Cal State Fullerton, UNCG, Liberty, UC Davis, Duquesne, Delaware State, Wagner, Portland State, Oregon, James Madison, Eastern Illinois and Slippery Rock have all dropped their programs (16 total).  Since 2006, Fresno State, Long Island Post, Presbyterian, and Arkansas Little Rock were added (4 total). During this time Cal-Baptist and SIUE transitioned to Division 1 and Augustana also announced they would be transitioning (3 total). Including the programs that have yet to take the mat (and assuming there are no additional drops before they transition), we are still down 8 D1 schools since 2006. This is a loss of 10%. 

When I think of "growing wrestling" in the US these are the two figures that come to mind - how many kids are wrestling and how is wrestling doing at major colleges. Each would indicate that Flo has had no effect on the growth of wrestling in the United States. Can anyone cite evidence that would suggest otherwise? 

Did Willie snag your woman?   This is getting obsessive. 

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No they are not growing the sport.. 

I hate the flo bros. Offputting amatuers (making stars??? Please).

I hate seeing adds even after I pay for the product..

Unreliable feeds 

Why am I paying for other flo sports that I have zero chance of watching?

I recently resubscribed for a flo account and have hated myself daily for it. The website is difficult to navigate. Content is hard to find. I think the content would be better off on a platform like youtube. IMO flo is amateur hour, trying to make  quick buck.  I'm ready to pay money to a company that deserves my money. 

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Correlation doesn’t equate to causation and anecdotes from friends aren’t great evidence when looking to answer this question. Flo has likely lengthened fans involvement and continued participation in conversations surrounding it but it’s hard to know the impact they’ve had on the “growth” of the sport. It’s a tough question to actually answer 

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7 hours ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Navigating brackets on track is a huge pain.

Maybe it's my familiarity with it. I know track pretty well, but I have also set up several duals and tournaments in it. 

On Arena, I find it a pain in the butt to have to swipe forward to the next round in the bracket. Sometimes I just want to see the bracket as a whole.

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I have not read all 108 replies to this topic so if this was already mentioned then oh well. I think flo has done a tremendous amount for wrestling and I do think they do their best most of the time. It just shocks me that they get so defensive when people call them out when feeds don’t work. If they paid for a service and it didn’t work I gotta think they would be upset as well. Let’s be honest.... flo is running a business.... period! They are providing a service at cost.... when doing so, the service needs to work as people are purchasing that product. I do like Flo overall and for the most part they do a great job. One thing that does puzzle me however, I’m shocked that the higher ups at flo tolerate one of their guys taking to twitter and use the language he does... can’t see how that is professional or how it demonstrates what flo wants to be perceived as.....never a good idea to tweet after the alcohol gets flowing!  

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I see a lot of complaining on this thread without a lot of real solutions being posted.  As I see it, Flo has the monopoly right now...yes there's track and others, but in terms of content generated, social media presence, access to wrestlers/teams, I really dont see anyone coming close to Flo.  So someone please create a competitor for Flo that pumps out the same amount of content/material that they do.  Make it less money and force flo to adapt or die.  That's how it works.  Flo has the juice right now.  So create competition.  That being said  I absolutely love my flo account.  Where I used to just watch the D1 NCAA championships (if I could find it on espn) I have become a much bigger high school wretling fan and am slowly learning more about international competition and that is 100% due to the ease of access flo has allowed.  Thanks for all you do Flo!

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1 hour ago, dtry222 said:

Correlation doesn’t equate to causation and anecdotes from friends aren’t great evidence when looking to answer this question. Flo has likely lengthened fans involvement and continued participation in conversations surrounding it but it’s hard to know the impact they’ve had on the “growth” of the sport. It’s a tough question to actually answer 

This! 

All I want is for people to stop throwing around the phrase "Flo is growing wrestling." They aren't and there is no logical argument to suggest they are. It's crazy that after five pages of even the Flo guy's admitting they aren't growing wrestling, fans still insist they are. 

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14 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

All - what are the metrics to measure 'growing wrestling'.

Zebra - you said social media is more impactful. Would you like me to put our social media followers and impressions #'s up against the rest of the world?

ptz - what event on flo 'crashed'? where have you seen that conversation lately? there have been blips (certainly not to be excused, and certainly we try everything we can to prevent them), but when has there been an outright failure to watch a stream?

All - i'm not going to sit here and try to convince anyone (that already has their mind made up) that Flo does/doesn't grow the sport. But is Flo good for the sport? We do more content, present more characters, make stars, make wrestlers recognizable, do more analysis, rankings, breaking news, behind the scenes, stream more events, have more shows...in short, we provide more wrestling fuel and reach more human beings then anyone else in wrestling and it's not close.

i have no idea how anyone with a straight face could say their wrestling fix would be satiated if flo didn't exist and they were left with the 'other' sites who put in a fraction of effort, creativity, and/or character.

Grow wrestling? IDK. Good for wrestling? c'mon. 

Willie, you are arguing semantics. How do you define a "crash" vs. a "blip?" Are these actual technical terms? Regardless of the word, the point is still the same. Often the product does not work. 

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48 minutes ago, ptz305 said:

Willie, you are arguing semantics. How do you define a "crash" vs. a "blip?" Are these actual technical terms? Regardless of the word, the point is still the same. Often the product does not work. 

You wouldnt know. You're not a subscriber.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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My own personal view point: I've always been simply an Oklahoma State wrestling fan. My FLO sub has definitely grown my knowledge of wrestling and has made me more of a fan of the sport as a whole and not just Oklahoma State. IMO, that is growing the sport but it is hard to quantify.

End of the day, it doesn't matter and the whole argument is pointless. If you are like me and you find FLO's content worthwhile great. If not, fine, don't get give them your money. It baffles my mind this has been a week long debate. 

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ptz - when did any of the Flo guys say we weren't growing wrestling? i said i'm avoiding that conversation because unless you give specific metrics, the point is inarguable. I 100% feel we are growing the sport, the events, and certainly the fan base. We put more wrestling content in front of eyeballs than anyone has at any point in human history. that is not debatable. 

Crash vs. blip is pretty straightforward. there is a difference between something being unwatchable (which hasn't happened in two years) and there being occasional interferences like the rainbow bars in the iowa-okst dual which admittedly wasn't good, but that quite literally resulted in missing about a collective 1 min of the dual and 1 key moment. again, not saying it is acceptable, but the way you (and others) put it is repeatedly not accurate/misleading. 

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49 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

ptz - when did any of the Flo guys say we weren't growing wrestling? i said i'm avoiding that conversation because unless you give specific metrics, the point is inarguable. I 100% feel we are growing the sport, the events, and certainly the fan base. We put more wrestling content in front of eyeballs than anyone has at any point in human history. that is not debatable. 

Crash vs. blip is pretty straightforward. there is a difference between something being unwatchable (which hasn't happened in two years) and there being occasional interferences like the rainbow bars in the iowa-okst dual which admittedly wasn't good, but that quite literally resulted in missing about a collective 1 min of the dual and 1 key moment. again, not saying it is acceptable, but the way you (and others) put it is repeatedly not accurate/misleading. 

You're right, you didn't say that. What you said was that you didn't know if you guys were growing wrestling. Totally fair. I don't believe you guys are obligated to either. Just wish people (fans) would stop stating it like it's a fact. 

I think what I called a "crash" is what you would call a "blip." Like you said, either way it's not good. Just am tired of having it turned around on the customer. Not your responsibility either. 

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