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Jimmy Cinnabon

Bad scramblers

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What makes a wrestler a good or bad scrambler?  Thinking about guys like Askren who always seem to come out on top.  Or Jesse Delgado or Heil.

Then bad scramblers I think of Matt Brown and Nick Lee, who are usually very strong positionally but put them in a scramble and they seem to lose every one. Then contrast Jason Nolf and Bo Nickal who seem to make stuff up in scrambles and come out on top.  Or Mark Hall.

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1 hour ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

What makes a wrestler a good or bad scrambler?  Thinking about guys like Askren who always seem to come out on top.  Or Jesse Delgado or Heil.

Then bad scramblers I think of Matt Brown and Nick Lee, who are usually very strong positionally but put them in a scramble and they seem to lose every one. Then contrast Jason Nolf and Bo Nickal who seem to make stuff up in scrambles and come out on top.  Or Mark Hall.

Nick Lee is actually a pretty good scrambler, at least defensively. He has trouble finishing leg attacks against scramblers, but I've also seen him pick people apart with far ankle stuff. 

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I think "natural" scramblers have a better sense of proprioception than most athletes.  Combine that with superior strength, like Askren had, and it spells huge problems for opponents.

 

pro·pri·o·cep·tion

Dictionary result for proprioception

/ˈˌprōprēəˈsepSH(ə)n/
noun
Physiology
noun: proprioception
  1. perception or awareness of the position and movement of the body.
    "exercises to improve balance and proprioception"

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2 hours ago, qc8223 said:

Nick Lee is actually a pretty good scrambler, at least defensively. He has trouble finishing leg attacks against scramblers, but I've also seen him pick people apart with far ankle stuff. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see him in the finals. He's improved a lot this year.

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18 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see him in the finals. He's improved a lot this year.

Yeah, he's sneaky good. It might depend on his draw. If he hits McKenna in the semis, I think Penn State fans should feel pretty good about his chances. Yianni or Eiermann, not so much. 

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2 hours ago, qc8223 said:

Yeah, he's sneaky good. It might depend on his draw. If he hits McKenna in the semis, I think Penn State fans should feel pretty good about his chances. Yianni or Eiermann, not so much. 

Yanni no, but Eiermann....He lost a couple positions in that NCAA match that were huge and I feel like I’m seeing him tighten up in those types of situations this year. I talked about this in another thread. I don’t know. I’m not saying I’m completely confident he’d beat him if they met again. But if I had to lay even money I’d put it on Lee. 

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9 hours ago, WF89 said:

Lee will lose to someone other than Yianni, McKenna or Eierman at NCAA’s.

I say at least 50% chance this happens.  Like when he got pinned by Diehl in his first match last year.  To his credit he stormed back to take 5th.  Kid is mentally tough.

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18 hours ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

 or Heil.

 

Not sure if I'd include him as an all-time great scrambler.  Especially after they passed the neutral danger rule, which very well may have been created specifically because of Heil and his habit of spending 50% of matches with one shoulder a 1/4 inch off the mat

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6 minutes ago, Mr. Peepers said:

Not sure if I'd include him as an all-time great scrambler.  Especially after they passed the neutral danger rule, which very well may have been created specifically because of Heil and his habit of spending 50% of matches with one shoulder a 1/4 inch off the mat

This probably sounds pretty goofy, but I've always thought that when a wrestler's shoulders are exposed, regardless of whether he's on top or bottom he should be giving up NF points.

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1 hour ago, TobusRex said:

This probably sounds pretty goofy, but I've always thought that when a wrestler's shoulders are exposed, regardless of whether he's on top or bottom he should be giving up NF points.

Is that only if his shoulders are exposed and not the opponent, or both (tilt for example)?  Just curious your thought.

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28 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Is that only if his shoulders are exposed and not the opponent, or both (tilt for example)?  Just curious your thought.

Curious about this as well; awarding back points to the bottom wrestler for tilts and cradles (both of which typically expose the top mans shoulders) would fundamentally change the sport.  The neutral danger rule was pretty common-sense based, and I didn't see much pushback on it from anywhere.  I think Heil vs Gulibon was the straw that broke the camel's back.  I'm no Penn State fan, but that match was a joke- Heil probably spent 25% of the match flat on his back while clinging to Gulibon's shoe.  At least from what I remember- this was the infamous match where Flo's servers crashed and we had to watch the stream from some random dude's cell phone. 

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On 2/28/2019 at 12:31 PM, Mr. Peepers said:

Curious about this as well; awarding back points to the bottom wrestler for tilts and cradles (both of which typically expose the top mans shoulders) would fundamentally change the sport.  The neutral danger rule was pretty common-sense based, and I didn't see much pushback on it from anywhere.  I think Heil vs Gulibon was the straw that broke the camel's back.  I'm no Penn State fan, but that match was a joke- Heil probably spent 25% of the match flat on his back while clinging to Gulibon's shoe.  At least from what I remember- this was the infamous match where Flo's servers crashed and we had to watch the stream from some random dude's cell phone. 

I think that the "top" man who  is often underneath the other guy in a tilt should not get near fall points if his shoulders are closer to the mat than the other wrestler's shoulders.  Same for a cradle.  Pulling a guy on you and being awarded with near fall points when your own body is preventing the fall due to being underneath the other guy is non-sensical.  No near fall unless and until the other guys' shoulders are nearer the mat than your own.

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12 hours ago, Lipdrag said:

I think that the "top" man who  is often underneath the other guy in a tilt should not get near fall points if his shoulders are closer to the mat than the other wrestler's shoulders.  Same for a cradle.  Pulling a guy on you and being awarded with near fall points when your own body is preventing the fall due to being underneath the other guy is non-sensical.  No near fall unless and until the other guys' shoulders are nearer the mat than your own.

If you are in control, then you should get the points.  A tilt, crab ride or cradle is usually because the top guy is controlling the situation and forcing the opponent to his back.

Let’s hope the NCAA never adopts your perspective on back points.  

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Then you must object to the concept of a defensive pin.  Furthermore your logic leads to the situation where the "top" man can lie flat on his back and pull the other guy's back to his own chest.  If the wrestler "in control" can keep the other guy's shoulder blades on his own stomach while his own shoulders are down then he should get a pin via the transitive property.  So long as he "controls" the other wrestler because "if you are in control, then you should get the (pin)".  Absurd from my perspective.

 

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