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Nolf and Nickal are amazing, but...

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10 hours ago, StallWarning said:

Some guys just don't look the part in wrestling.  It's a really deceiving sport to watch.  You can see two guys walk out and put on the bands and think that the guy who looks like a brick ****house is going to destroy the other guy who looks lanky and unassuming.  Then you watch the lanky and unassuming kid tear the guy a new ******* in two minutes flat.  I wrestled plenty of guys who looked the part that I took apart because I was simply better.

Bo Nickal is a great example.  He's lanky and doesn't look hulking.  He still crumples up big hulking 197lbers into small little balls in under two minutes, though.  

Nolf vs. Panteleo

One is completely shredded. The other looks like he's on the JV cross country team. 

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32 minutes ago, Katie said:

In NCAA wrestling, 2007 Askren and 2011 Burroughs were both undefeated national champs and Hodge winners.

In freestyle, 2007 Askren couldn't crack the top three in the country, while 2011 Burroughs was a world champion.

You have presented no evidence that 2007 Askren was better than 2011 Burroughs.

So it seems to me that the most reasonable conclusion is that 2011 Burroughs was better than 2007 Askren.

Their senior seasons Askren destroyed everybody.  His only close match was when he bumped up and beat Kish at 184.  Burroughs had several close matches his senior year at 165.  And if you don't realize that with Askren's style there is a world of difference between folkstyle and free, then I can't help you.  And I'm done debating it with you, because it's pointless.

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9 hours ago, KCMO2 said:

Their senior seasons Askren destroyed everybody.  His only close match was when he bumped up and beat Kish at 184.  Burroughs had several close matches his senior year at 165.  And if you don't realize that with Askren's style there is a world of difference between folkstyle and free, then I can't help you.  And I'm done debating it with you, because it's pointless.

Do you also believe Jayson Ness was better than Jake Varner?

Edited by Katie

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10 hours ago, Katie said:

In NCAA wrestling, 2007 Askren and 2011 Burroughs were both undefeated national champs and Hodge winners.

In freestyle, 2007 Askren couldn't crack the top three in the country, while 2011 Burroughs was a world champion.

You have presented no evidence that 2007 Askren was better than 2011 Burroughs.

So it seems to me that the most reasonable conclusion is that 2011 Burroughs was better than 2007 Askren.

Askren was just so good at finding and creating positions where he could get control. He is a bit of an enigma in the way he is able to string things together from bad positions to put people on their back. He was not explosive at all, which suited Burroughs for freestyle immediately. Askren is a fine tuned folkstyle wrestler, and he gave up positions frequently that would be exposure points in Free to get points in Folk. I think Askren would have been able to be more successful in freestyle, but it would have taken a lot more time, because he had to deviate from his normal style so much more to be successful on the international level. Burroughs did not have to make those changes on his feet. Burroughs in more recent years did really develop a good top game, but he came in and won worlds and the olympics on the same thing he did in folk, just an explosive set of takedowns on his feet and great D.  

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9 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Askren was just so good at finding and creating positions where he could get control. He is a bit of an enigma in the way he is able to string things together from bad positions to put people on their back. He was not explosive at all, which suited Burroughs for freestyle immediately. Askren is a fine tuned folkstyle wrestler, and he gave up positions frequently that would be exposure points in Free to get points in Folk. I think Askren would have been able to be more successful in freestyle, but it would have taken a lot more time, because he had to deviate from his normal style so much more to be successful on the international level. Burroughs did not have to make those changes on his feet. Burroughs in more recent years did really develop a good top game, but he came in and won worlds and the olympics on the same thing he did in folk, just an explosive set of takedowns on his feet and great D.  

Scrambling happens in freestyle all the time. Check out Chamizo or Taylor some time.

The most significant difference between D1 wrestling and world- level wrestling is that world-level wrestlers are much better.

Askren couldn’t do much about a guy who take him down cleanly, and JB undoubtedly would have done so.

 

Edited by Katie

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7 minutes ago, Katie said:

Scrambling happens in freestyle all the time. Check out Chamizo or Taylor some time.

The most significant difference between D1 wrestling and world- level wrestling is that world-level wrestlers are much better.

Askren couldn’t do much about a guy who take him down cleanly, and JB undoubtedly would have done so.

 

Scrambling happens but it happens within the rules of freestyle so it would still require Askren to deviate from the style he wrestled his entire life. You don't see the difference? Look how long it took Taylor to get truly acclimated to scrambling in the freestyle rules. Yes he was behind Burroughs, but they guy got 5th at the Yosur Dogu in 2016. It has taken awhile for him to get where he is. Chamizo didn't ever wrestle folk so it is not a fair comparison. 

Yes, world level wrestlers are much better, but Askren's Junior an Senior year he was also much better than every D-1 wrestler. Give Askren the kind of time that Taylor took and he could be that good. 

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16 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Scrambling happens but it happens within the rules of freestyle so it would still require Askren to deviate from the style he wrestled his entire life. You don't see the difference? Look how long it took Taylor to get truly acclimated to scrambling in the freestyle rules. Yes he was behind Burroughs, but they guy got 5th at the Yosur Dogu in 2016. It has taken awhile for him to get where he is. Chamizo didn't ever wrestle folk so it is not a fair comparison. 

Yes, world level wrestlers are much better, but Askren's Junior an Senior year he was also much better than every D-1 wrestler. Give Askren the kind of time that Taylor took and he could be that good. 

We can speculate all we want about what Askren would have done in freestyle, but it does nothing for the fundamental problem that he has no answer for someone who can take him down cleanly.

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3 minutes ago, Katie said:

We can speculate all we want about what Askren would have done in freestyle, but it does nothing for the fundamental problem that he has no answer for someone who can take him down cleanly.

Isn't it speculation that he would have those issue with someone who can finish cleanly? Askren went on an 87 match win streak after his junior and senior year. You are using his loss to Pendelton as a freshman and sophomore as the impetus for your argument that getting taken down by clean finishers is his fundamental problem. What if we look at Burroughs career like that? He has way more losses his freshman and sophomore years that would poke holes in his arsenal. Why is Burroughs development and improvement assumed, where Askren's career is evaluated like he never got better?

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11 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Isn't it speculation that he would have those issue with someone who can finish cleanly? Askren went on an 87 match win streak after his junior and senior year. You are using his loss to Pendelton as a freshman and sophomore as the impetus for your argument that getting taken down by clean finishers is his fundamental problem. What if we look at Burroughs career like that? He has way more losses his freshman and sophomore years that would poke holes in his arsenal. Why is Burroughs development and improvement assumed, where Askren's career is evaluated like he never got better?

Askren was the best wrestler in college for two years. He was also really fun to watch. I genuinely respect the guy.

But my opinion is that he just isn't built for the neutral game against the world's best. I never saw world-class level changes, quickness, power, or an arsenal of highly technical leg attacks.

Edited by Katie

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7 minutes ago, Katie said:

Askren was the best wrestler in college for two years. He was also really fun to watch. I genuinely respect the guy.

But my opinion is that he just isn't built for the neutral game against the world's best. I never saw world-class level changes, quickness, power, or an arsenal of highly technical leg attacks.

Folkstyle isn't near as focussed on the neutral game as free, which goes back to the original point you were trying to make. Burroughs shouldn't be the assumed victor just because of his excellence on his feet.

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7 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

Not sure how Pendelton is considered a good proxy for Burroughs; very different styles.

Pendleton was taking Askren down and not giving him a chance to scramble, just like Burroughs would've done.

2011 Burroughs was taking Tsargush down. 2007 Askren would have been significantly easier.

Edited by Katie

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2 minutes ago, Katie said:

Pendleton was taking Askren down and not giving him a chance to scramble, just like Burroughs would've done. 2011 Burroughs was taking Tsargush down. 2007 Askren would have been significantly easier.

Who wins in a folkstyle match, Askren his senior year or Tsargush in 2011? I take Askren by bonus.

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14 minutes ago, Katie said:

Pendleton was taking Askren down and not giving him a chance to scramble, just like Burroughs would've done.

2011 Burroughs was taking Tsargush down. 2007 Askren would have been significantly easier.

As long as you are using freshman/sophomore results to bolster your senior year Askren argument, don't forget that Askren beat Pendleton in the BIG5 finals his freshman year.

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21 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Who wins in a folkstyle match, Askren his senior year or Tsargush in 2011? I take Askren by bonus.

Here is a video of Askren and Tsargush wrestling in 2008.

Edited by Katie

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4 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I said folkstyle. Thats what we were talking about in the burroughs/askren match right? If it was free I give that one to burroughs no doubt, but no one is arguing that.

If you are genuinely interested in how Askren and Tsargush match up, you should watch the video.

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I do think the difference rule sets are a factor. Askren probably needed time to adjust his scrambling ability to freestyle rules.

But I also think world-class freestylers are far better than any D1 wrestler Askren faced in '06 and '07. And I don't think Askren is built for the neutral game at the highest levels.

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6 minutes ago, Katie said:

I do think the difference rule sets are a factor. Askren probably needed time to adjust his scrambling ability to freestyle rules.

But I also think world-class freestylers are far better than any D1 wrestler Askren faced in '06 and '07. And I don't think Askren is built for the neutral game at the highest levels.

Who was more dominant their senior years in D1 wrestling. Burroughs or Askren. Askren had 90 some pins in college. He was more dominant on the d1 level their senior. Isn't that apples to apples there? You so badly want to compare apples to oranges.

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Kyle Snyder took second at the NCAA tournament in 2015, and then went on to win worlds just a couple months later and become a world class wrestler. Just because you win or lose at NCAAs doesn't guarantee you will succeed or fail at the next level. Look at someone like Gilman, who never won an NCAA title, but was second in the world immediately after his senior year. What I'm getting at is that just because Burroughs won worlds in 2011 doesn't guarantee that he would've beaten a 2007 Ben Askren. Similarly, there's no guarantee that a 2007 Askren beats a 2011 Burroughs.

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2 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Who was more dominant their senior years in D1 wrestling. Burroughs or Askren. Askren had 90 some pins in college. He was more dominant on the d1 level their senior. Isn't that apples to apples there? You so badly want to compare apples to oranges.

My opinion is that 2011 JB would have taken 2007 Askren down cleanly, which would have nullified Askren's scrambling ability. That means JB would have won because he had the more effective weapon.

Obviously they never time traveled in order to wrestle each other so we can only speculate. Nevertheless, that's my opinion.

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