Jump to content
Jimmy Cinnabon

Nolf and Nickal are amazing, but...

Recommended Posts

Dominance doesnt always paint the full picture, see dake and taylor. That being said, folkstyle is not all neutral, and its not like burroughs was blowing away everyone on his feet. He was amazing but others were able to keep it close. Askren was able to bump up and win so my guess is he was deceptively strong on top of everything, and would have been problems for burroughs in other positions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Katie said:

My opinion is that 2011 JB would have taken 2007 Askren down cleanly, which would have nullified Askren's scrambling ability. That means JB would have won because he had the more effective weapon.

Obviously they never time traveled in order to wrestle each other so we can only speculate. Nevertheless, that's my opinion.

How long have you followed NCAA wrestling?  Did you watch Askren in college?  Do you know it is possible to scramble on the mat?  Askren didn't score all his points going feet-to-back.

Edited by jchapman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, jchapman said:

How long have you followed NCAA wrestling?  Did you watch Askren in college?  Do you know it is possible to scramble on the mat?

Ok we’re going for the digs now. Nice. 

Edited by Katie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Katie said:

Pendleton was taking Askren down and not giving him a chance to scramble, just like Burroughs would've done.

2011 Burroughs was taking Tsargush down. 2007 Askren would have been significantly easier.

Shallow analysis. Pendleton had very precise and sound (i.e. "funk-proof") technique; Burroughs has speed and explosiveness.

I'm not saying you're wrong - just that you have no good tools for comparing Askren v. Burroughs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

Shallow analysis. Pendleton had very precise and sound (i.e. "funk-proof") technique; Burroughs has speed and explosiveness.

I'm not saying you're wrong - just that you have no good tools for comparing Askren v. Burroughs.

Obviously I think JB has “precise and sound” technique to go along with his other tools. I didn’t realize that was even a question. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

Dude - everyone on this board is telling you the same thing. Go watch some youtube videos - Pendleton and Burroughs are nothing alike.

Then I guess "everyone on this board" has not understood anything I said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Fletcher said:

Dude - everyone on this board is telling you the same thing. Go watch some youtube videos - Pendleton and Burroughs are nothing alike.

Not everyone. 

The majority of the Askren posts I’m seeing are comparing results and scores as their predictor. Katie is looking at the STYLE of wrestling and how they match up. Katie never said Pendelton and JB were mirrors of each other, but saying the style each wrestler utilized is such that leaves a lot less opportunity for the scrambles. 

Dake and Taylor are both four time finalists with six titles between them. (To go with the result comparison model) One utilized scrambling to the ‘ nth’ degree, the other didn’t scramble as much but is very hard to score cleanly on. JB is like 8–1 or something against those two and they’re world champs. Granted those were both freestyle but how those two wrestle on their feet didn’t change much except for DT tightening up his scrambling to be effective in freestyle. 

Theres no telling who would have won because the match will never happen. But to act like Katie’s point should be conpletely dismissed because Askren won by bigger scores in his college career is short sided. In my opinion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Katie, watch the Flo film on Askren. Pendleton beat Ben when his techniques were still in their infancy.  By his junior year, Pendleton would have been toast, crisp clean finishes or not. Of course Freestyle is a different kettle of fish, and given enough time, Ben would have had a similar effect on worldwide freestyle as he's had on American folkstyle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/1/2019 at 10:07 AM, Katie said:

Scrambling happens in freestyle all the time. Check out Chamizo or Taylor some time.

The most significant difference between D1 wrestling and world- level wrestling is that world-level wrestlers are much better.

Askren couldn’t do much about a guy who take him down cleanly, and JB undoubtedly would have done so.

 

 Ben looked like a fish out of water in free.   He was able to use about 10% of his arsenal.  It’s amazing he made the Olympic team in a style which was such a poor fit.

Edited by Cradle1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, tigerfan said:

By his junior year, Pendleton would have been toast

Seems pretty unlikely to me. Consider that by the time Pendleton graduated that Askren had 3 years to work on his "new system" (RS+ FR + SOPH years). He didn't look any more successful  against Pendleton in his last match against him than he did the first time they wrestled. The fact is Pendleton pretty much owned Askren, I don't see any reason he wouldn't have continued doing so. Hypothetically if Pendleton had a couple more years of eligibility I don't think Askren would've EVER won an NCAA title. Bear in mind I'm a much bigger fan of Askren than Pendleton.

Guess I'll have to watch that FLO film everybody is talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/1/2019 at 4:59 AM, PSUMike said:

Nolf vs. Panteleo

One is completely shredded. The other looks like he's on the JV cross country team. 

I betcha Nolf is stronger. Those musclebound guys are never as strong as they look.

Edited by TobusRex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Burroughs in his senior year was on a different level than Askren in his senior year.  Askren was the better pinner, but Burroughs was the best neutral wrestler in the world.  He absolutely demolished Andrew Howe that year.  The fact that some even consider Askren to have been on JB's level speaks to how great Askren was, but we are talking about Burroughs here.  Burroughs made all of us in the wrestling community stop caring about Askren in 2011. 

 

The only real question is who was better if you compare each of their respective junior years, and for that I would go with Askren.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Burroughs in his senior year was on a different level than Askren in his senior year.  Askren was the better pinner, but Burroughs was the best neutral wrestler in the world.  He absolutely demolished Andrew Howe that year.  The only real question is who was better if you compare each of their respective junior years, and for that I would go with Askren.  

Askren, all the way, against Burroughs in a folk match at ANY point in their college careers. Askren was a better folk wrestler than Burroughs. Not to mention the weight advantage.

Edited by TobusRex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

Askren, all the way, against Burroughs in a folk match at ANY point in their college careers. Askren was a far better folk wrestler than Burroughs.

Askren is the guy you'd rather have on your team in the NCAA tournament because of his bonus points.  But Burroughs is the guy who would have won the head to head matchup between the two.  There is no way to funk out of JB's double.  There wasn't a human on the planet that could stop that attack in 2011.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Askren is the guy you'd rather have on your team in the NCAA tournament because of his bonus points.  But Burroughs is the guy who would have won the head to head matchup between the two.  There is no way to funk out of JB's double.  

Definitely you gotta go with the points. As for the "head to head matchup" you opined?

I'd take that bet. And win. You can't count on winning in folk just because you are a takedown artist. And people saying Askren "couldn't stop Burrough's blast double" seem to be forgetting that wrestlers of lesser caliber than Ben Askren did that very thing (Tyler Caldwell in one of their matches, for example).

Edited by TobusRex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...