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Having just watched the Bulgaria Kolov freestyle tourney, as soon as Nolf gets more senior level time he's the guy at 70kg. Might be this year.

Still like JB at 74kg, but if Dake drops that will be the best match at final x.

Edited by TBar1977

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16 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Having just watched the Bulgaria Kolov freestyle tourney, as soon as Nolf gets more senior level time he's the guy at 70kg. Might be this year.

Still like JB at 74kg, but if Dake drops that will be the best match at final x.

So if Dake does make the drop to 74 this year, Burroughs is still sitting in Final X best of 3 at 74 and Dake loses his seat at 79 Final X?

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So if Dake does make the drop to 74 this year, Burroughs is still sitting in Final X best of 3 at 74 and Dake loses his seat at 79 Final X?
It's all or nothing if he drops down to 74 kg.

It's Gold at 79kg. Endorsements, etc.

I'm not sure Dake cares about placement points. He thinks he's the best. The bad draw of the bracket.





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15 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

It's all or nothing if he drops down to 74 kg.

It's Gold at 79kg. Endorsements, etc.

I'm not sure Dake cares about placement points. He thinks he's the best. The bad draw of the bracket.





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Dake would likely medal at 74kg. But so would Burroughs. It'll be an amazing Final X if Dake drops down.

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 Why are we making the assumption that fix goes 57 kg?   Based on his college weight class I think he goes 61 Kg.  

It’s also amazing how Logan stieber can’t even get a mention.  Zane and JO combined don’t have a list of international wins that can compete with Logan. Both are also going to struggle with the weight....

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 Why are we making the assumption that fix goes 57 kg?   Based on his college weight class I think he goes 61 Kg.  
It’s also amazing how Logan stieber can’t even get a mention.  Zane and JO combined don’t have a list of international wins that can compete with Logan. Both are also going to struggle with the weight....


Few reasons for that...

1. He has lost to JO every time they wrestled FS. 3-4 times.

2. He hasn’t competed in some time.

3. He looked small and ineffective at 65 when he has wrestled.

4. The international wins you reference were at 61.

5. JO has looked very good recently.


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On 3/1/2019 at 3:13 PM, treep2000 said:

To me...JB has looked "really good" at Kolov.  Just sayin'.

I was holding off on saying anything until he finished the tournament but yes, I agree 100%.  The timing of his attacks look good and he was really battling in defending takedowns.  I've not rewatched the finals match but had they been in bounds it looked like JB was going to hit a switch and come back around on the only takedown Bekzod had.  

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On 3/3/2019 at 8:09 AM, Crash said:

 


Few reasons for that...

1. He has lost to JO every time they wrestled FS. 3-4 times.

2. He hasn’t competed in some time.

3. He looked small and ineffective at 65 when he has wrestled.

4. The international wins you reference were at 61.

5. JO has looked very good recently.


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Your post is an excellent summary of the current conventional wisdom of Logan Stieber and the field at 143.  A conventional wisdom that I respectfully believe will prove to be wrong for the following reasons:

First, the whole "Logan can only win at 61 kg" thing is misguided:  Here are some key Logan wins at 65 kg.

1. 3x World Champ Aliyev at World Cup 2018.

2. 2x World Bronze Medalist Tobier in 2018.

3. Beat the Olympic Gold Medalist Romanov in a few months before Romanov won Olympics at 65 kg, presumably with a two kilo allowance and day before weigh ins (so much bigger opponent than we see today at 65 kg with same day weigh ins at scratch weight).

4. Pico in 2016 shortly before Olympic Trials.

5. Three wins (versus one close loss) over Chakaev, who in my view is the second best 65 kg in the World behind Otoguro. Two of these wins were at 61 kg but I don't view that as a relevant. 

The thing is, 65 kg today literally is 61 kg with the old day before weigh in rules.  Nearly all the guys who are contenders at this weight competed at 61 kg before (Bajrang, Otoguro, Chakaev, Aliyev, Bekbulatov, Rashidov).  Meanwhile all the formerly top guys at 65 kg have either moved up or are seemingly in some sort of non-competing limbo almost (Asgarov, Romanov).  Logan's weight in college was 141.  So 143 is his natural weight class when there are multiple weigh ins.

I think the bigger issue with Stieber is that his performance has admittedly been very inconsistent. 2017 Worlds and 2018 Yarygin were just plain awful.  So it's natural that we want to find another option. I just don't see that it's either J.O. or Zane (Yanni D. is a different story but that's another conversation).  First off, neither is a natural 65 kg under multiple weigh in rules. If they were, they would have wrestled 141 not 149 in college.  J.O. has beaten Logan in a number of close bouts in freestyle under day before weigh in rules.  After his shrinking his body by close to ten lbs for multiple weigh ins  I think the edge may go to Logan.  Here's the analogy I'd use.  If Mark Hall moved up to 184 to challenge Myles Martin, Martin likely wins.  However, if Myles Martin cuts to 174 to challenge Mark Hall, now I gotta go with Hall because Martin is competing a weight below his optimal weight class.  With day before weigh in rules, Logan is essentially moving up to J.O.'s weight, with same day and multiple weigh ins, J.O. is cutting down to Logan's.

Stylistically, I think Oliver and Zane present the opposite problem- Zane is an incredible folkstyle grinder who beat people into submission from the top position.  So his greatest asset is completely non-existent under freestyle rules.  It's like John Smith without his low single.  I just don't see that he has the truly elite game from neutral to be beating the very best consistently, but if willpower and guts alone can get you there then maybe so.  With Oliver, he's a joy to watch compete, but that's never seemed to quite get him over the hump.  I'm not sure why his recent performance is taken as a great sign- he teched a bunch of guys Logan has either teched or would tech, then got teched by Bajrang.  Bajrang is just one of probably a half dozen top medal contenders at this weight,, so this result doesn't exactly spike my enthusiasm for him as our guy at 65 kg....

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57 kg - Fix

61kg - Garret

65 kg - Zain R

70 kg Nolf

74 kg Dake if he drops otherwise JB

79 kg Zahid - Dake if he doesn't drop

86 kg Taylor

92 kg Cox if he stays put - if not ??

97 kg Snyder

125 kg Gwiz

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On 3/3/2019 at 12:43 AM, Cradle1 said:

 Why are we making the assumption that fix goes 57 kg?   Based on his college weight class I think he goes 61 Kg.  

I also believe Fix will go 61. Better long-term for his body to not suck down for two day weigh-ins, and will be more likely to make the team at 61 vs. 57 (strictly from a percentage basis i.e. 90% likely at 61, 45% likely at 57)

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57: Gilman until proven otherwise. He didn’t look great this past weekend, but I think Gilman gets a bad rep on this board cause his personality rubs people the wrong way 

61: Colon. Part of me really wants to pick Fix/Garret to break through here, but Colon has been rock solid against world level competition the last twelve months. Give me the returning medalist

65: I like Oliver to finally get over the hump and make the team, though it seems to me Molinaro, Zain, and Steiber could all take it if they have a good tournament

70: I like Nolf here-His senior level experience is lacking, but Green just hasn’t been the same since the new weigh in rules were introduced. I think the cut is getting to be too much for him and Nolf overwhelms him with his pace 

74: JB seemed reinvigorated this past weekend. Even if Dake drops I think Burroughs owns this weight for at least another year 

79: Dake if he stays up, although if he drops I Like Ringer to run away with it. He’s been steadily improving, and my gut tells me he outhorses Hall and Valencia this time around 

86: Taylor. After watching him torch the world last year, I don’t think anyone touches him domestically.

92: Cox reigns supreme. I could see someone like Moore, Nickal, or even a really improved Macchiavello putting Cox in a real nail biter of a match, but J’den seems to excel in those kinds of bouts 

97: Snyder, next topic 

125: Gwiz, although this is probably the pick im least confident in after 65. I think Gwiz has established himself as a guy who is consistently in the running for bronze or even silver with a good draw, there just seems to be a bit of separation between him and the top guys still. However, with Steveson waiting in the wings, Gwiz will need to be his best self to make the team. Gable strikes me as having a trajectory much like Snyder, and it wouldn’t shock me at all to see him medal at worlds on the heels of a true freshman ncaa title. 

Overall I think this is a very good team for the United States. I think we have better than even odds to at least make the finals from 74 up to heavy, and I’d give our lighter guys an even chance to medal at every weight except 65 and 70. 65 kg medals have eluded the US for years now, and I dont see green or Nolf being able to pull out a medal this year

 

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7 minutes ago, Underhook said:

57: Gilman until proven otherwise. He didn’t look great this past weekend, but I think Gilman gets a bad rep on this board cause his personality rubs people the wrong way 

61: Colon. Part of me really wants to pick Fix/Garret to break through here, but Colon has been rock solid against world level competition the last twelve months. Give me the returning medalist

65: I like Oliver to finally get over the hump and make the team, though it seems to me Molinaro, Zain, and Steiber could all take it if they have a good tournament

 

My issue with Gilman is not that he rubs me the wrong way, it's consistency.  That's what makes predicting the team at the lighter weights hard.  They could be off or on fire.  This is something our middle and upper weights have that our lighter weights don't.  

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18 minutes ago, misterc said:

My issue with Gilman is not that he rubs me the wrong way, it's consistency.  That's what makes predicting the team at the lighter weights hard.  They could be off or on fire.  This is something our middle and upper weights have that our lighter weights don't.  

Very fair assessment-Gilman has managed to look like both the next big thing and a total dud within the last 12 months or so. I’m definitely a Gilman fan so maybe it just seems to me like a whole lot of Gilman haters get on their high horse whenever he loses 

 

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3 hours ago, Underhook said:

 

61: Colon. Part of me really wants to pick Fix/Garret to break through here, but Colon has been rock solid against world level competition the last twelve months. Give me the returning medalist

 

 

Garrett winning wouldn't be a breakthrough.  Garrett won Final X the first time, including a quick tech in the decisive 3rd match.  For several years, Colon was underrated, but now I think the pendulum has swung the other way. 

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Well as far as Gilman is concerned, I do hope that he finds a way to be more consistent, I do believe that he will be our rep this year at 57.

61, Colon, Garrett, Fix? I have no idea how this will play out but it does seem to me that Colon is working hard to keep his spot and improve. He is the one we see ( mostly ), competing at the international tourneys. 

65, well this is just going to be demolition derby, we have a ton of big time guys who will be contesting this weight. Right now, you can probably make a case for any of the top contenders, and I have no insight on who will actually prevail here. 

70, Green, Nolf, GHulk, and maybe Chamberlain, I think JG prevails if he's on his game, if not who knows, GHulk has been competing ( Dave Schultz, Dan Kolov), so his freestyle game might be sharper than Nolf's and Chamberlain. 

74, JB

79, Dake

86, DT

92, Cox

97, Snyderman 

125, Gwizz. ( I do wonder if Coon will try to go both styles again ), if so, I think he presents the greatest challenge to Nick. 

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Eager to find out if Dake will come down.  He's risking the potential of world medal (at 79) to do so.  Hopefully JB sent a message to Dake, with his performance at Kolov that he may want to think twice about it.

Manning was asked after a match recently (prior to Kolov) what he thought about if Dake comes down.  Said something along line of JB has beaten him every time, didn't have a concern and neither did JB.  Guess I was wrong as I had concern!

Just watched JB v Sidakov from 1/4 last yr Worlds.  He should've won that match and beaten that guy way before the end.  He had no gas.  Slow back to the circle.  It's common match demeanor for him.  Wonder if it's him/style or his tank is low and not in tip top shape.  I've often wondered if he was in a training room with guys better than him, pushing him and coaches giving tough love that he'd be at 6 gold and past it right now.  Hate to critique as a big fan but want the best for him.

 

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Eager to find out if Dake will come down.  He's risking the potential of world medal (at 79) to do so.  Hopefully JB sent a message to Dake, with his performance at Kolov that he may want to think twice about it.
Manning was asked after a match recently (prior to Kolov) what he thought about if Dake comes down.  Said something along line of JB has beaten him every time, didn't have a concern and neither did JB.  Guess I was wrong as I had concern!
Just watched JB v Sidakov from 1/4 last yr Worlds.  He should've won that match and beaten that guy way before the end.  He had no gas.  Slow back to the circle.  It's common match demeanor for him.  Wonder if it's him/style or his tank is low and not in tip top shape.  I've often wondered if he was in a training room with guys better than him, pushing him and coaches giving tough love that he'd be at 6 gold and past it right now.  Hate to critique as a big fan but want the best for him.
 
A room with guys better than him?

So you want him to relocate to Daegastan?

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Still want to see if Dake makes the drop to 74 this year to try to dethrone JB. Whoever can win a 2019 World medal will sit pretty in 2020 OTT Final X.

So if Kyle does drop to 74 this year, JB will still sit in Final X and Dake will have get through the 74 brackets while forfeiting his seat at 79 Final X? Fascinating story line , but obviously frustrating with only 6 Olympic weight classes.   

Or does Kyle just stay at 79 this year and wait til 2020 to make the 74kg Olympic run?

 

 

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On 3/3/2019 at 5:09 AM, Crash said:

 


Few reasons for that...

1. He has lost to JO every time they wrestled FS. 3-4 times.

2. He hasn’t competed in some time.

3. He looked small and ineffective at 65 when he has wrestled.

4. The international wins you reference were at 61.

5. JO has looked very good recently.


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I agree with your assessment of Logan but not JO. He did not look good this past weekend. 

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17 hours ago, 2td3nf said:

Still want to see if Dake makes the drop to 74 this year to try to dethrone JB. Whoever can win a 2019 World medal will sit pretty in 2020 OTT Final X.

So if Kyle does drop to 74 this year, JB will still sit in Final X and Dake will have get through the 74 brackets while forfeiting his seat at 79 Final X? Fascinating story line , but obviously frustrating with only 6 Olympic weight classes.   

Or does Kyle just stay at 79 this year and wait til 2020 to make the 74kg Olympic run?

 

 

We will know soon as the US Open rolls around right?  If Kyle intends to take 74kg, he may start there as winner goes straight to WTT Challenge Tournament best of 3.  Or does he go the Zahid route and wait til WTT and blitz the field?

Edited by misterc

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This is our World Cup team.  Outside of Zain, who on this list is on anyone's radar to even have a chance to make the World team?

57 kg/125.5 lbs. – Zach Sanders, Minneapolis, Minn. (Minnesota Storm)
57 kg/125.5 lbs. – Zane Richards, Champaign, Ill. (Titan Mercury WC/Illinois RTC)
61 kg/134 lbs. – Nico Megaludis, Pittsburgh, Pa. (Titan Mercury WC/Pittsburgh WC)
65 kg/143 lbs. – Zain Retherford, State College, Pa. (Nittany Lion WC)
70 kg/154 lbs. – Jason Chamberlain, Fresno, Calif. (Titan Mercury WC/Valley RTC)
74 kg/163 lbs. – Isaiah Martinez, Champaign, Ill. (Titan Mercury WC/Illinois RTC)
79 kg/174 lbs. – Tommy Gantt, Raleigh, N.C. (Titan Mercury WC/Wolfpack RTC)
86 kg/189 lbs. – Sammy Brooks, Iowa City, Iowa (New York AC/Hawkeye WC)
92 kg/202 lbs. – Hayden Zillmer, Minneapolis, Minn. (Minnesota Storm)
97 kg/213 lbs. – Kyven Gadson, Ames, Iowa (Sunkist Kids/Cyclone RTC)
125 kg/275 lbs. – Tony Nelson, Minneapolis, Minn. (Minnesota Storm)

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1 hour ago, Coach_J said:

This is our World Cup team.  Outside of Zain, who on this list is on anyone's radar to even have a chance to make the World team?

57 kg/125.5 lbs. – Zach Sanders, Minneapolis, Minn. (Minnesota Storm)
57 kg/125.5 lbs. – Zane Richards, Champaign, Ill. (Titan Mercury WC/Illinois RTC)
61 kg/134 lbs. – Nico Megaludis, Pittsburgh, Pa. (Titan Mercury WC/Pittsburgh WC)
65 kg/143 lbs. – Zain Retherford, State College, Pa. (Nittany Lion WC)
70 kg/154 lbs. – Jason Chamberlain, Fresno, Calif. (Titan Mercury WC/Valley RTC)
74 kg/163 lbs. – Isaiah Martinez, Champaign, Ill. (Titan Mercury WC/Illinois RTC)
79 kg/174 lbs. – Tommy Gantt, Raleigh, N.C. (Titan Mercury WC/Wolfpack RTC)
86 kg/189 lbs. – Sammy Brooks, Iowa City, Iowa (New York AC/Hawkeye WC)
92 kg/202 lbs. – Hayden Zillmer, Minneapolis, Minn. (Minnesota Storm)
97 kg/213 lbs. – Kyven Gadson, Ames, Iowa (Sunkist Kids/Cyclone RTC)
125 kg/275 lbs. – Tony Nelson, Minneapolis, Minn. (Minnesota Storm)

Imar, Brooks, Gadsen, and Nelson off the top of my head. Big roads ahead? Yes. On the radar? Absolutely.

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