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Jimmy Cinnabon

Gabe Dean - all time?

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Not that high. He was very good but there have been 28 3 time champs, with 3 more potentially this year

there have also been 4 4 timers

That means there are at least 32 people currently with better results. 

You also have to account for 2 timers who are ahead of him. Isaiah Martinez went 1-1-2-2 over Dean’s 3-1-1-2. 

What about 2 timers like David Taylor? Gwiz? Tony Nelson? Ben Askren? Metcalf? Etc

Id suggest Dean is in the 50-60 range credentials wise. Still amazing, but not legendary. If he had won his last title he would be top 20 or so. 

Edited by Housebuye

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1 hour ago, madcat11 said:

Martin had a relatively bad sophomore season that stands out.

The jump to 184lbs was not easy for Martin.  Once he acclimated to the weight he's been an absolute beast.  He looks as good at 184lbs this year as anybody at any weight.

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12 minutes ago, Dr. Novak said:

Loss to Nickal hurt him.

Obviously a win would have been better BUT... you can look at it another way after this year - he won two and lost his 3rd in a close bout against to one the the best ever. 

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1 hour ago, Housebuye said:

Not that high. He was very good but there have been 28 3 time champs, with 3 more potentially this year

there have also been 4 4 timers

That means there are at least 32 people currently with better results. 

You also have to account for 2 timers who are ahead of him. Isaiah Martinez went 1-1-2-2 over Dean’s 3-1-1-2. 

What about 2 timers like David Taylor? Gwiz? Tony Nelson? Ben Askren? Metcalf? Etc

Id suggest Dean is in the 50-60 range credentials wise. Still amazing, but not legendary. If he had won his last title he would be top 20 or so. 

You MUST look at the competition and not JUST how many championships.  His ONLY NCAA Tournament losses were to Ed Ruth and Bo Nickal and both were competitive matches.  Plus, and DI wrestling teams/coaches/wrestlers suck for how they treat/ignore/even lie about this, Dean was considerably hampered at his last NCAA's.( I know many of you have a running joke about this so feel free to add in your endless string of "Lee" jokes)

Dean's year by year stats:

FR-45-3  2 of those losses were to Ruth and the other was to  Sheptock, who took 2nd that year, and his ONLY loss was to Ruth. NCAA 3rd Place

SO-42-2  Both losses were early in the season at Cliff Keen's to Meeks and Zillmer.  He beat the NCAA runner up that year 4 times(Brown).  NCAA CHAMP

Jr-34-1  Came back too early from illness and gassed by the end of the 1st period against Boyd(OkState).  Beat Boyd 10-4 at NCAAs.  NCAA CHAMP

Sr-34-1  20 of his 30 wins going into NCAA's were falls and 4 more were TFs.  In fact, Boyd and Martin were the only non bonus pt wins entering NCAA's and he beat both by 5.  He would grind his way to the Finals at NCAA's but lose to Nickal 4-3.  NCAA 2nd Place

Every season 184 was considered one of, if not THE, deepest weights.    Ruth, Sheptock, Dechow, Steinhaus, Thomas, Brown, Stauffer, Avery, Zillmer, Miklus, Dudley, Renda, Meeks, Boyd, Miller, Brooks, Nickal, Martin, Jackson and Foster either finished 4th or higher at least once at NCAA's or where/are multiple time AA's.

Now, I don't think that warrants him top 10 or maybe even top 20 consideration, but he was pretty dominant in a very strong weight class.

Edited by MSU158

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14 hours ago, MSU158 said:

You MUST look at the competition and not JUST how many championships.  His ONLY NCAA Tournament losses were to Ed Ruth and Bo Nickal and both were competitive matches.  Plus, and DI wrestling teams/coaches/wrestlers suck for how they treat/ignore/even lie about this, Dean was considerably hampered at his last NCAA's.( I know many of you have a running joke about this so feel free to add in your endless string of "Lee" jokes)

Dean's year by year stats:

FR-45-3  2 of those losses were to Ruth and the other was to  Sheptock, who took 2nd that year, and his ONLY loss was to Ruth. NCAA 3rd Place

SO-42-2  Both losses were early in the season at Cliff Keen's to Meeks and Zillmer.  He beat the NCAA runner up that year 4 times(Brown).  NCAA CHAMP

Jr-34-1  Came back too early from illness and gassed by the end of the 1st period against Boyd(OkState).  Beat Boyd 10-4 at NCAAs.  NCAA CHAMP

Sr-34-1  20 of his 30 wins going into NCAA's were falls and 4 more were TFs.  In fact, Boyd and Martin were the only non bonus pt wins entering NCAA's and he beat both by 5.  He would grind his way to the Finals at NCAA's but lose to Nickal 4-3.  NCAA 2nd Place

Every season 184 was considered one of, if not THE, deepest weights.    Ruth, Sheptock, Dechow, Steinhaus, Thomas, Brown, Stauffer, Avery, Zillmer, Miklus, Dudley, Renda, Meeks, Boyd, Miller, Brooks, Nickal, Martin, Jackson and Foster either finished 4th or higher at least once at NCAA's or where/are multiple time AA's.

Now, I don't think that warrants him top 10 or maybe even top 20 consideration, but he was pretty dominant in a very strong weight class.

I only really take that into account when compared to other 2 timers. I have all 3 timers ahead of him. While you might be able to argue some of them, my method if a bit more objective. How would you quantify the level of competition? Results over their career? Up to that point? What about having 1 beast vs a stacked weight? Should Snyder at 2-1-1-1 be top 5 overall? Not only did he win multiple world golds, he also won his title over a 2 time world bronze and beat a world champ. His only tournament loss was when he was 18 vs a senior. 

Dean beat a stacked field for NCAAs maybe, but is it really more difficult to beat a bunch of mid tier AAs vs 1 world level guy?

It becomes too difficult to compare in my opinion. 

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...i always found his performances inspiring- just the way he "brought it" in every match- seems like a humble guy raised in a good family environment-ranking in an "all time great" scenario- the elite among the elite- is difficult to do- one or two points could make the difference between a 2 timer and a 4 timer .......top 5 in "attitude"....

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