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WillieBoy

Why not a Tournament of Champions?

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1 hour ago, Katie said:

They should just go back to giving a spot at the D1 tournament to D2 champs. (I'm not sure if D3 champs also got to participate.) I'm sure D2 champs are better than at least some NCAA qualifiers.

Haselrig famously won three D1 tournaments as a D2 wrestler.

You want to win a D1 championship? Go to a D1 school. Life is about choices. Make tough ones. Live with them. 

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5 hours ago, Dr. Novak said:

Guy comes up with a great idea and every post is about why it wouldn't work.   

prolly b/c it's not a 'great idea' and also b/c it's been a thread on here about 100 times. 

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6 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Or Old Dominion!

Considering ODU's had two wrestlers compete in the NCAA Division I finals ... the possibility actually exists, unlike say, St. Norbert. 

I'm not crapping on the idea, BTW. I'm talking on the idea of bringing in the D2 and D3 guys back into the event that was (again) brought up. 

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19 minutes ago, JasonBryant said:

Facts are facts. If you want to win a D1 title, you don't enroll at Southwest Minnesota State. 

Correct but it was great when D3 guys like Kenny Mallory and Tom Martucci won the D1 Championship. It’s too bad that when a guy puts education first and elects to attend an elite liberal arts school (Williams, Trinity,) and cannot earn a way to the D1 Championship. 

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2 minutes ago, gowrestle said:

Correct but it was great when D3 guys like Kenny Mallory and Tom Martucci won the D1 Championship. It’s too bad that when a guy puts education first and elects to attend an elite liberal arts school (Williams, Trinity,) and cannot earn a way to the D1 Championship. 

If you want to earn a way to a Division I title, you find the right mix of athletics and academics to do both. Otherwise, you make choices that suit your life goals. If that opportunity doesn't exist, you could do what some people like to do these days - sue for it. Point is, you don't go to a Division III school with the desire to earn your way to play in the Orange Bowl. Same thing applies. That NCAA tournament was "open" prior to 1968 (give or take a year), then it went to three divisions in 1974. So that run from 74 until they stopped the D2-D3 qualifiers was such a small part of the NCAA wrestling timeline. What other sport does this? None of them. You pick a school with great academics that happens to be D3, well, that's your choice. I hate to sound like a grump, but it's the reality of the situation. That is never going to come back. Never. 

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4 minutes ago, JasonBryant said:

If you want to earn a way to a Division I title, you find the right mix of athletics and academics to do both. Otherwise, you make choices that suit your life goals. If that opportunity doesn't exist, you could do what some people like to do these days - sue for it. Point is, you don't go to a Division III school with the desire to earn your way to play in the Orange Bowl. Same thing applies. That NCAA tournament was "open" prior to 1968 (give or take a year), then it went to three divisions in 1974. So that run from 74 until they stopped the D2-D3 qualifiers was such a small part of the NCAA wrestling timeline. What other sport does this? None of them. You pick a school with great academics that happens to be D3, well, that's your choice. I hate to sound like a grump, but it's the reality of the situation. That is never going to come back. Never. 

 

It's been well documented on this forum you are an overly sensitive millennial. 

Now if I had said that it would have been more appropriate since I'm a crotchety old curmudgeon. 

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35 minutes ago, Zebra said:

 

It's been well documented on this forum you are an overly sensitive millennial. 

Now if I had said that it would have been more appropriate since I'm a crotchety old curmudgeon. 

I supported going back to an older rule about who qualifies for the NCAA tournament. But if that rule was bad, I am happy to hear the reasons.

But instead of seeing reasons the old rule was bad, I seem to be seeing a lot of restatements of the obvious.

Edited by Katie

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1 hour ago, gowrestle said:

Correct but it was great when D3 guys like Kenny Mallory and Tom Martucci won the D1 Championship. It’s too bad that when a guy puts education first and elects to attend an elite liberal arts school (Williams, Trinity,) and cannot earn a way to the D1 Championship. 

no. it's not too bad. 

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The ncaa used to invite the Dii and Diii champs to the Di championship.  The Dii and iii nationals were basically qualifiers and this produced many lower level guys becoming Di AA's.   This actually helped smaller schools recruit top kids because they still had a chance to win the Di's.  I would prefer this over a "Tournament of Champions" because when you go through a grinding season to hit your peak performance at nationals, it is very tough mentally and sometimes physically to be your best again shortly thereafter.  Like an earlier poster mentioned, no incentive for the Di champ to complete.

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There are many wrestlers in DII that were not able to pass the clearinghouse and qualify to wrestle DI. That probably wasn't a "problem" when they had been allowed in the tournament previously, but it is now.  If a student couldn't qualify to be a DI wrestler, they should not receive the opportunity to wrestle at the premier NCAA event.

Certainly there are exceptions, but for most wrestlers, there is a reason they are wrestling in DII or III and not DI.

There is no benefit or incentive for DI to have lower division wrestlers competing at the DI tournament.

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Plenty of lower division guys who won overall titles at the NCAA Wrestling Championships.   Jay Hammond's book lists them all.

Just going from A to D:

Azevedo, Blacksmith, Carollo, both Cuestas', and Dotson.
2  & 1        NAIA &1      NAIA &1          2 & 1            2 & 1


 

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3 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

If you want to earn a way to a Division I title, you find the right mix of athletics and academics to do both. Otherwise, you make choices that suit your life goals. If that opportunity doesn't exist, you could do what some people like to do these days - sue for it. Point is, you don't go to a Division III school with the desire to earn your way to play in the Orange Bowl. Same thing applies. That NCAA tournament was "open" prior to 1968 (give or take a year), then it went to three divisions in 1974. So that run from 74 until they stopped the D2-D3 qualifiers was such a small part of the NCAA wrestling timeline. What other sport does this? None of them. You pick a school with great academics that happens to be D3, well, that's your choice. I hate to sound like a grump, but it's the reality of the situation. That is never going to come back. Never. 

In this case NEVER is NEVER. FYI the rule change was put in for several reasons. D1 coaches lobbied for it because they didn’t like it when a D2/3 kid kept their guys off the podium. D3 coaches were pushing for it because schools like Trenton State (TCNJ) successfully recruited D1 level guys and felt schools like that had an unfair advantage. And, the NCAA wanted wrestling to be in line with the other sports. Like elections, choosing colleges have consequences. I did like the tournament better when it was open to more athletes. 

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5 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

You want to win a D1 championship? Go to a D1 school. Life is about choices. Make tough ones. Live with them. 

I've never seen a non-D1 wrestler claim he would have won a D1 championship. Not once. I've seen very good D1 wrestlers transfer to non-D1 schools, see great success, and not engage in any conversation about how good they would have been in D1. They all seem to live with their choices just fine.

The problem here is with the fans. What irks me are:

1. Fans claiming non-D1 guy "would have been a D1 champ". That's BS. Maybe they would have - maybe not. Either way, we'll never know. Leave them out of the conversation - they don't want to be in it. Leave that conversation to the guys that went D1.

2. Fans claiming non-D1 guys "couldn't qualify to be D1". That's also BS. There are plenty of examples. Some great wrestlers choose to go non-D1 for their own reasons. Stop trying to label them as somehow being less talented wrestlers because they didn't choose D1. Some of these guys could - and did - qualify in D1. But took themselves out of the conversation by going or transferring to non-D1. Leave them out of the conversation. They opted out of it on purpose.

 

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9 hours ago, gowrestle said:

In this case NEVER is NEVER. FYI the rule change was put in for several reasons. D1 coaches lobbied for it because they didn’t like it when a D2/3 kid kept their guys off the podium. D3 coaches were pushing for it because schools like Trenton State (TCNJ) successfully recruited D1 level guys and felt schools like that had an unfair advantage. And, the NCAA wanted wrestling to be in line with the other sports. Like elections, choosing colleges have consequences. I did like the tournament better when it was open to more athletes. 

There is some creedence to that. Gotta figure the grind in D1 would be tougher than D2 or D3 just because the level of the opponents would likely be higher. So a D2 kid winning D1 NCAAs would be kinda like Boise State, which plays an utter creampuff schedule in football, beating OU in the Orange Bowl. OU was all beat up after playing in a major conference, and Boise was well rested from kicking the creampuffs around all year.  Probably not the best analogy, admittedly.

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4 hours ago, TobusRex said:

There is some creedence to that. Gotta figure the grind in D1 would be tougher than D2 or D3 just because the level of the opponents would likely be higher. So a D2 kid winning D1 NCAAs would be kinda like Boise State, which plays an utter creampuff schedule in football, beating OU in the Orange Bowl. OU was all beat up after playing in a major conference, and Boise was well rested from kicking the creampuffs around all year.  Probably not the best analogy, admittedly.

That's a legitimate argument.  The crowd did enjoy the D2, D3 and NAIA competitors, though.  

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Since the advent of the current qualifying system, would it not make sense to allow wrestlers from other NCAA divisions to be considered for the final spots after the allocations if:

  • They had a high enough RPI meaning  they would have had to have competed against enough D1 competition to get such a high score and
  • They were D1 eligible.

 

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"And, the NCAA wanted wrestling to be in line with the other sports. Like elections, choosing colleges have consequences."

Like Football? Where every division has an actual NCAA Champion - except D1 where it is a poll choice winner in a severely limited playoff?

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