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Marcus Cisero

How Title IX Destroyed SEC College Wrestling

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4 minutes ago, jchapman said:

I stand with you!

just wait - watch how some of these guys destroy me like the last time I brought this up. I've been sitting at the 50 yard line at the PA state championships for the last 20 years and this is one topic 99% ALL coaches agree with, just not publicly.

Edited by Marcus Cisero

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39 minutes ago, Marcus Cisero said:

Want to make wrestling more competitive with nearly double the participants, then reinstate all the MEN’s wrestling programs that were eliminated by this sickening PC garbage known as Title IX.

Go ahead, excoriate me – I can handle it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS3KoG3f_es

 

 

NCAA wrestling exists because other people are forced to fund it. The money comes from taxpayers, students, and -- at some schools -- fans of other sports.

Title IX provides a framework school administrators use in determining which teams will be propped up by others' money. Title IX's framework seeks to give women a legitimate opportunity to play college sports -- which is fair given that women are also being forced to subsidize college sports.

In this environment, the best way for college wrestling to survive is to put out a good product, play the institutional game, and promote women's wrestling.

An idea that probably won't work is to lobby Congress to make a wrestling exception to Title IX.

An idea that definitely will not work is playing the victim even though others are already being forced to subsidize you.

 

Edited by Katie

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Want to make wrestling more competitive with nearly double the participants, then reinstate all the MEN’s wrestling programs that were eliminated by this sickening PC garbage known as Title IX.

Go ahead, excoriate me – I can handle it.

 

 

 

The SEC is a football conference ( yeah basketball and baseball too). Title 9 isn't the reason they don't wrestle. They just don't care about many of the niche Olympic Sports.

 

Look at the elite Big Ten Schools. They (UM, tOSU, PSU) sponsor 34 sports unlike Alabama's 15. So if Alabama wanted to add wrestling they could easily fund it. Even if it meant adding a women's sport like field hockey.

 

 

But, nice try. There's always someone to blame. (Title 9, Russian Conspiracy against American Wrestling).

 

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14 minutes ago, Katie said:

NCAA wrestling exists because other people are forced to fund it. The money comes from tax payers, students, and -- at some schools -- fans of other sports.

Title IX provides a framework school administrators use in determining which teams will be propped up with others' money. Title IX's framework seeks to give women a legitimate opportunity to play college sports -- which is fair given that women are also being forced to subsidize college sports.

In this environment, the best way for college wrestling to survive is to put out a good product, play the institutional game, and promote women's wrestling. An idea that probably won't work is to lobby Congress to make a wrestling exception to Title IX. Playing the victim even though others are being forced to subsidize you definitely will not work.

 

Marquette was funded by alumni donors, and was still cut.

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8 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Marquette was funded by alumni donors, and was still cut.

Sucks for Marquette, but probably not the normal scenario for a cut program.

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47 minutes ago, Marcus Cisero said:

just wait - watch how some of these guys destroy me like the last time I brought this up. I've been sitting at the 50 yard line at the PA state championships for the last 20 years and this is one topic 99% ALL coaches agree with, just not publicly.

Yeah, you won't find many in the wrestling community that are fans of Title IX.

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40 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

The SEC is a football conference ( yeah basketball and baseball too). Title 9 isn't the reason they don't wrestle. They just don't care about many of the niche Olympic Sports.

 

Look at the elite Big Ten Schools. They (UM, tOSU, PSU) sponsor 34 sports unlike Alabama's 15. So if Alabama wanted to add wrestling they could easily fund it. Even if it meant adding a women's sport like field hockey.

 

 

But, nice try. There's always someone to blame. (Title 9, Russian Conspiracy against American Wrestling).

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

"But, nice try. There's always someone to blame. (Title 9, Russian Conspiracy against American Wrestling)." <-------listen I understand some have to protect their multi year street cred on this board but lets at least be HONEST and stick to the FACTS.  PC Title 9  eliminated approx 60+ collegiate wrestling teams during the 1980’s. Today we're down to about 80, and that's the fact Jack!

Spineless men unwilling to speak their mind allowed the ruination of MMA too. Who in their right mind pays even 10 cents via PPV to watch women beat the heck out of each other just to show - "we can do this too." Barf!

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In a way it's football's fault. Football teams have a huge number of men participants and scholarships. Since title IX mandates equal opportunity (numbers), men's sports needed to be cut and women's teams added in order to address the football imbalance. Football is a hog but for conferences and schools where it is a cash cow it is untouchable. Even schools that lose money on football (most) see it as untouchable.

The problem with adding women's wrestling teams is that you add expense. Heck, if you wanted to even up numbers quickly, you'd add women's football. But you haven't seen that because sex equitable football would add a lot of expense, revenue is questionable and building high school programs doubtful.

Title IX is very fair in terms of leveling opportunity based on general population numbers. But not so fair in terms of numbers of high schoolers participating in sports (still more guys but ever increasing numbers of women, largely due to Title IX).

A solution for some schools would be adding coed wrestling teams. Eliminate some men's weights (yes this would hurt hopefully only in the short run) and add some women's. All count to a combined dual score.

D2 and D3 with existing men's teams could do this without much additional expense (or fan heartburn which would kill the concept with D1 programs) and make the sport equitable. And if I were a D2 or D3 team, I'd convert to freestyle leagues just to differentiate from D1 folkstyle (agnostic as to which is more entertaining) and make it more attractive for schools to add teams.

To really take hold, high schools would have to embrace the idea.



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2 hours ago, Katie said:

NCAA wrestling exists because other people are forced to fund it. The money comes from taxpayers, students, and -- at some schools -- fans of other sports.

Title IX provides a framework school administrators use in determining which teams will be propped up by others' money. Title IX's framework seeks to give women a legitimate opportunity to play college sports -- which is fair given that women are also being forced to subsidize college sports.

In this environment, the best way for college wrestling to survive is to put out a good product, play the institutional game, and promote women's wrestling.

An idea that probably won't work is to lobby Congress to make a wrestling exception to Title IX.

An idea that definitely will not work is playing the victim even though others are already being forced to subsidize you.

 

Not completely true....top teams drawing 10k + fans at a dual are more than self supporting.  Also, let's be realistic that revenue from mens sports, especially football and basketball,  is what is funding womens and some mens programs. The only exception would be women's basketball at some schools. 

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27 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Not completely true....top teams drawing 10k + fans at a dual are more than self supporting.  Also, let's be realistic that revenue from mens sports, especially football and basketball,  is what is funding womens and some mens programs. The only exception would be women's basketball at some schools. 

I think it’s obvious that the vast majority of college programs operate at a loss.

But I’d be interested in seeing hard numbers at the most successful programs. I’d bet their revenue doesn’t come close to covering their costs. 

At any rate, I doubt PSU, Ohio State, and similar programs are worried about Title 9. 

Edited by Katie

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If you factor in donor money of alumni to the university general fund, a number of programs do not operate at a loss. Cornell and Princeton are two obvious examples. Penn as well. I’m sure it’s the same at PSU, tOSU, Iowa, etc.

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The 25th most valuable college football team last year finished with a 31 million dollar profit - not revenue - profit. in 2014-15 over 100 NCAA football teams made profit (IPEDS). As to entire athletic departments - a lot of them are running at a loss. If football and mens basketball are bringing in profit (for the most part is what the data shows) then why is the department as a whole running at a loss?  The NCAA has a lot to do with this.  This is an old article from ESPN (2012)- but. it brings up some very valid points about the NCAA who has set scholarship limits (not Title IX) to protect high revenue sports and how ridiculous the allotments are. The author suggests letting schools determine scholarship limits per sport. Furthermore it is not only a slap in the face to men that women's rowing gets 20 scholarships per year, but it also degrades successful women's programs such as softball who only receive 12. 

http://www.espn.com/espnw/title-ix/article/7959799/the-silent-enemy-men-sports

 

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The Financial Impact of College Football

The reality is college football is a money-maker in some schools, but not all. The schools that don't make money from the sport far outnumber those that do.

From
https://college.lovetoknow.com/campus-life/does-college-football-make-money

Nearly three quarters of all Division I football programs now run deficits, which are eventually covered by the rising tuition and student fees.

From
https://www.ibtimes.com/college-football-public-universities-spend-millions-stadiums-despite-slim-chance-2258669

And get out of D1 and almost everyone is a loser. Yet all these "losers" still have FB teams that in a world of mandated equitable men/women sports participant numbers means other men's sports take it on the chin. And always will unless football suddenly becomes unpopular. Until then the most practical way to keep wrestling from further shrinkage is pick a smaller, distressed program and support it. I know that's what I should do ... But .....



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Have the schools call Football a Co-Ed sport. Have tryouts open to men and women both. Occasionally you will find a woman who can qualify but for the most part they will not do so - but it might shut them up on "equal opportunity" to compete. Make all the sports open tryouts for men and women both - they want equality - give it to them. Equality in tryouts with one team per sport - no more "separate but equal".

See how they like having to play 5 sets in Tennis with the men. See how many can make the Basketball team. Watch what happens in track and field.

Equal opportunity to try out for teams does not guarantee they will make them - men or women.

The Gymnsatics team - open to both men and women. No man will beat a woman on the balance beam.

Make wrestling co-ed or have two teams?

 

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15 minutes ago, WillieBoy said:

Have the schools call Football a Co-Ed sport. Have tryouts open to men and women both. Occasionally you will find a woman who can qualify but for the most part they will not do so - but it might shut them up on "equal opportunity" to compete. Make all the sports open tryouts for men and women both - they want equality - give it to them. Equality in tryouts with one team per sport - no more "separate but equal".

See how they like having to play 5 sets in Tennis with the men. See how many can make the Basketball team. Watch what happens in track and field.

Equal opportunity to try out for teams does not guarantee they will make them - men or women.

The Gymnsatics team - open to both men and women. No man will beat a woman on the balance beam.

Make wrestling co-ed or have two teams?

 

Nobody seriously thinks women are as athletic as men. That's the very reason men and women do not compete against each other.

Title IX is an attempt to ensure that women have a chance to enjoy college sports. Simple as that.

I think the best argument against Title IX is that men are more interested in sports than women are. But, I don't think that argument is strong enough to win the day because we're talking about tax dollars and tuition dollars. Women pay those too.

Edited by Katie

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Ultimately the fact is this: universities are not meant to exist so they can have sports teams. Universities exist so people can get an education. The fact we have college sports to enjoy is kind of a fluke. Enjoy it, because it may very well not last much longer. Why, you say? Because football programs are almost always the big "moneymakers" on campus. Scratch the football team at PSU, and the wrestling team will likely follow in short order. Scratch the football program at OU and the entire athletic department goes down. The problem with football being the "breadwinner" is football is a dying sport. CTE continues to grow in prominence and football may very well go the way of the dodo within a decade or two. At least in the form in which we know it. Plus consider: once the full facts on CTE come out, how many state funded public universities will be allowed to support a sport that causes massive brain trauma to it's participants? How many universities will want to even take a CHANCE on former players coming back and suing the hell out of the school for CTE caused by playing for the school?

 

We're already on borrowed time, in my opinion. Football hogs up tons of schollies and Title IX essentially insured that many, many men's sports programs would be forced to be dropped. That said, without the money coming in from football most athletic departments wouldn't be economically feasible at all.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, swoopdown said:

The Financial Impact of College Football

The reality is college football is a money-maker in some schools, but not all. The schools that don't make money from the sport far outnumber those that do.

From
https://college.lovetoknow.com/campus-life/does-college-football-make-money

Nearly three quarters of all Division I football programs now run deficits, which are eventually covered by the rising tuition and student fees.

From
https://www.ibtimes.com/college-football-public-universities-spend-millions-stadiums-despite-slim-chance-2258669

And get out of D1 and almost everyone is a loser. Yet all these "losers" still have FB teams that in a world of mandated equitable men/women sports participant numbers means other men's sports take it on the chin. And always will unless football suddenly becomes unpopular. Until then the most practical way to keep wrestling from further shrinkage is pick a smaller, distressed program and support it. I know that's what I should do ... But .....



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Even the schools that don't make money from football use it to drive enrollment and alumni donations.  It's still a net money-maker, even if ticket sales do not outweigh the costs.  

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1 hour ago, swoopdown said:

The Financial Impact of College Football

The reality is college football is a money-maker in some schools, but not all. The schools that don't make money from the sport far outnumber those that do.

From
https://college.lovetoknow.com/campus-life/does-college-football-make-money

Nearly three quarters of all Division I football programs now run deficits, which are eventually covered by the rising tuition and student fees.

From
https://www.ibtimes.com/college-football-public-universities-spend-millions-stadiums-despite-slim-chance-2258669

And get out of D1 and almost everyone is a loser. Yet all these "losers" still have FB teams that in a world of mandated equitable men/women sports participant numbers means other men's sports take it on the chin. And always will unless football suddenly becomes unpopular. Until then the most practical way to keep wrestling from further shrinkage is pick a smaller, distressed program and support it. I know that's what I should do ... But .....



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Then there's this article...

https://www.ucribs.com/blog-post/ncaa-football-teams-made-more-money-than-many-nfl-teams-in-2015-infographic/

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