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Marcus Cisero

How Title IX Destroyed SEC College Wrestling

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39 minutes ago, potentiallydangerous said:

Wrestling has a low carbon footprint and should be part of the green new deal®.

Just because so few people bother driving to wrestling matches as opposed to tens of thousands for football games :D Plus I bet Tab Thacker's farts probably contributed to global warming more methane than all the critters of the Amazon basin combined.

Edited by TobusRex

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Even the schools that don't make money from football use it to drive enrollment and alumni donations.  It's still a net money-maker, even if ticket sales do not outweigh the costs.  
Only a handful of schools (Ivy league, Carnegie Mellon) have deemphasized their once big time programs. Fewer still have followed the University of Chicago model and dropped a successful program. That many believe it to be a cultural and economic necessity for recruiting students and alumni support is undeniable. The facilities and services arms race among colleges may prove unsustainable ... some evidence exists that says it will not .... Student loan bubble, declining enrollments, college shutdowns, cyber education alternative to brick and mortar. But I would bet that even after the inevitable shakedown and retrenchment that may be coming, football will survive. It will be the "minor," sports that are sacrificed.

Arguing whether or not football programs are or are not net money makers, good or bad, etc are rabbit holes that I should have avoided. My long-winded point is (finally) that football is King, good or bad and for whatever reason (Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government) and wrestling fans and other minor sport pesantry have to deal with that. The royal marriage between King Football and Queen Title IX is a lethal regime for low revenue men's sports. Men's wrestling is an out-of-favored bastard sport of the realm and that's not likely to change as long as the marriage exists.

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14 hours ago, PUWrestler said:

One way to bring these programs back is to start D1 women’s programs. Presbyterian College is starting men’s and women’s programs in 2019. Title IX can be used to help grow the sport.

Totally 100% agree. Women's wrestling is a way to effectively deal with Title IX.

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So I watched the video, and I feel it begs the question- why did Title IX kill wrestling in the SEC but not the B10?  The law is national, no?  The guy in the video does explain how important football is in the SEC and how most of the schools field very large teams with boated budgets.  Fair enough I suppose, but then how can schools like Michigan, Ohio State, and Penn State filed large and successful football teams while also allowing wrestling to thrive?  Strangely, after speaking about the size and cost of football, the guy in the video says we "shouldn't blame football."  When the video ended I was more confused than when it began.

You're not going to find too many college wrestling fans willing to defend Title IX, and I will not do so.  I do not like the law.  It came from a good place, but its application is wrong.  Yes, it has provided opportunity for women- but often times these opportunities have been at the expense of opportunities for men.  That said, and as someone else already pointed out, many (most?) of these SEC schools could easily afford to add additional non-revenue programs, for both men and women.  But they don't and they won't because they would rather use the money for mahogany lockers and flat screens in the showers or whatever the hell else they can use to get that 5-star to commit. 

That all said, I think an even bigger threat is the movement to pay college football players.  This will result inn even less revenue for the other sports, and the ensuing arms race very well may kill off all non-revenue men's sports. 

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11 hours ago, TobusRex said:

Ultimately the fact is this: universities are not meant to exist so they can have sports teams.

 

 

 

 

 

This. 

College athletic programs were created for a healthy and entertaining way for students and communities to bond and develop school spirit.  No one ever anticipated college football and, to a lesser extent, basketball becoming the behemoths they are today.  Further, the NCAA was not created to administer programs of this size and expense. 

I'm only half kidding when I say that it's time for a semi-pro college football league.  Give the SEC and some of the other huge state schools their own league.  Pay the players.  Stop pretending that they're students.  Allow endorsements, jersey sales, etc.  Maybe one day they can merge with the NFL.

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1 hour ago, Mr. Peepers said:

 

That all said, I think an even bigger threat is the movement to pay college football players.  This will result inn even less revenue for the other sports, and the ensuing arms race very well may kill off all non-revenue men's sports. 

One of the sports radio stations had a lawyer on talking about this.

He said that, under Title IX,if  a college wanted to pay the players in any D1 sport,they'd have to pay all D1 athletes in all sports .

 

 

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Georgia Tech, not in the SEC but ACC, Lacks wrestling it is about 27% female. to offset the Males on a wrestling team, they would merely need to add a women's golf team. How the heck can a major university in Georgia not have Women's Golf?  or they could add women's Soccer, which would more than offset Mens Soccer and Wrestling.

Does any team in the SEC have more than 21 Varsity Sports? I count 274 total varsity teams 19.6 average(includes M&W, T+F, Indoor&Outoor (count as 4). Lehigh has 26, Bucknell 28, Heck mostly D3 FM has 28.  The ten school Patriot League has about as many as athletic Programs as 14 school SEC. The 8 school Ivy has more.

SEC  athletics is there for alumni and fans, not for Student athletes.

The entity most responsible for the Demise of SEC wrestling was Bear Bryant. He was the AD, He wanted the money, he wanted the floor space, he said U of Alabama could no longer afford wrestling. The other 6 followed. Yeah T9 applied to some, like Kentucky, but it was Bryant mostly   

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22 hours ago, Katie said:

NCAA wrestling exists because other people are forced to fund it. The money comes from taxpayers, students, and -- at some schools -- fans of other sports.

Title IX provides a framework school administrators use in determining which teams will be propped up by others' money. Title IX's framework seeks to give women a legitimate opportunity to play college sports -- which is fair given that women are also being forced to subsidize college sports.

In this environment, the best way for college wrestling to survive is to put out a good product, play the institutional game, and promote women's wrestling.

An idea that probably won't work is to lobby Congress to make a wrestling exception to Title IX.

An idea that definitely will not work is playing the victim even though others are already being forced to subsidize you.

 

This is accurate.

Title IX has been around for 50 years.  I don't know of any college administrators that started working in administration when there was no Title IX. 

When I was young I thought Title IX was too blame.  Then I did a lot of research into it.  Title IX has some issues but it isn't to blame for wrestling's issues and it is absolutely not to blame for any program elimination in the last 25 years.

Wrestling is a freeloader that is subsidized on campuses all around the country.

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24 minutes ago, Pinnum said:

 

This is accurate.

Title IX has been around for 50 years.  I don't know of any college administrators that started working in administration when there was no Title IX. 

When I was young I thought Title IX was too blame.  Then I did a lot of research into it.  Title IX has some issues but it isn't to blame for wrestling's issues and it is absolutely not to blame for any program elimination in the last 25 years.

Wrestling is a freeloader that is subsidized on campuses all around the country.

Yep.  I think the last decade has showed that while Title IX certainly has done no favors to college wrestling it wasn't the root cause of why so many programs were dropped. If it was, the explosion of TV revenue would mean at least a few schools would have brought it back. Instead the growth that is happening is at lower level schools that use it to drive additional male enrollment.  I"m sure there were a few ADs that agonized over how to make things work but overall Title IX was an excuse, not a cause. 

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So I watched the video, and I feel it begs the question- why did Title IX kill wrestling in the SEC but not the B10?  The law is national, no?  The guy in the video does explain how important football is in the SEC and how most of the schools field very large teams with boated budgets.  Fair enough I suppose, but then how can schools like Michigan, Ohio State, and Penn State filed large and successful football teams while also allowing wrestling to thrive?  Strangely, after speaking about the size and cost of football, the guy in the video says we "shouldn't blame football."  When the video ended I was more confused than when it began.

You're not going to find too many college wrestling fans willing to defend Title IX, and I will not do so.  I do not like the law.  It came from a good place, but its application is wrong.  Yes, it has provided opportunity for women- but often times these opportunities have been at the expense of opportunities for men.  That said, and as someone else already pointed out, many (most?) of these SEC schools could easily afford to add additional non-revenue programs, for both men and women.  But they don't and they won't because they would rather use the money for mahogany lockers and flat screens in the showers or whatever the hell else they can use to get that 5-star to commit. 

That all said, I think an even bigger threat is the movement to pay college football players.  This will result inn even less revenue for the other sports, and the ensuing arms race very well may kill off all non-revenue men's sports. 

Bingo!

 

 

 

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lol schools pump a billion dollars into football, carry 100 player rosters,  the coaches  make 8 figure salaries and get carried around on palanquins and still some people blame the decline of college wrestling on wimmen

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Is it possible there are two, parallel but unique situations happening?  Keeping an existing wrestling program is all about the cost, and the push to self-fund for these programs is paramount.  Meanwhile, the prospect of adding wrestling is more constrained by Title 9 considerations, and women's wrestling is a promising avenue to pursue in order to additional men's wrestling programs as well.  

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Title IX redirected scarce dollars from money losing men's sports into money losing women's sports. Arguing that Title IX is not a primary driver in the elimination of men's sports is spin that doesnt ring true for me. Sure, other drivers also exist. But Title IX is a biggie.


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Title IX redirected scarce dollars from money losing men's sports into money losing women's sports. Arguing that Title IX is not a primary driver in the elimination of men's sports is spin that doesnt ring true for me. Sure, other drivers also exist. But Title IX is a biggie.


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Title 9 is not the reason why the SEC doesn't support wrestling.

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34 minutes ago, swoopdown said:

Title IX redirected scarce dollars from money losing men's sports into money losing women's sports. Arguing that Title IX is not a primary driver in the elimination of men's sports is spin that doesnt ring true for me. Sure, other drivers also exist. But Title IX is a biggie.


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True, the NCAA should just get rid of all money losing sports and create women's football. Problem solved. 

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1 hour ago, swoopdown said:

Title IX redirected scarce dollars from money losing men's sports into money losing women's sports. Arguing that Title IX is not a primary driver in the elimination of men's sports is spin that doesnt ring true for me. Sure, other drivers also exist. But Title IX is a biggie.


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I’m no expert on Title 9’s effect on wrestling. But it seems like Title 9 must be a factor in the loss of wrestling programs.

But it certainly doesn’t tell the whole story. Lacrosse has added almost 400 men’s and women’s teams in the last decade. 

How is lacross thriving? I’m not sure. But one way or another, it probably comes down to money—specifically, recruiting students and donors. 

Edited by Katie

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1 hour ago, swoopdown said:

Title IX redirected scarce dollars from money losing men's sports into money losing women's sports. Arguing that Title IX is not a primary driver in the elimination of men's sports is spin that doesnt ring true for me. Sure, other drivers also exist. But Title IX is a biggie.


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Why are money losing men's sports more important than money losing women's sports?

Why is money so scarce for wrestling compared to other sports? 

 

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1 hour ago, swoopdown said:

Title IX redirected scarce dollars from money losing men's sports into money losing women's sports. Arguing that Title IX is not a primary driver in the elimination of men's sports is spin that doesnt ring true for me. Sure, other drivers also exist. But Title IX is a biggie.


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Its not just money,its also participation requirements.

A few years ago there was an article about  Syracuse  dropping wrestling because of funding.

The team raised enough money to fund themselves.

Syracuse still dropped the program due to Title IX participation requirements.

 

 

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Why are money losing men's sports more important than money losing women's sports? Why is money so scarce for wrestling compared to other sports?

 

1st Question:. They are not more important. Except to fans and participants of a particular sport of course. No?

 

2nd Question:. Other sports have been cut too. I don't know if wrestling has suffered more than other sports. Interesting question.

 

Women's sports definitely got the short end of the stick before Title IX, and fans and participants of those sports have benefited.

 

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21 minutes ago, rpbobcat said:

Its not just money,its also participation requirements.

A few years ago there was an article about  Syracuse  dropping wrestling because of funding.

The team raised enough money to fund themselves.

Syracuse still dropped the program due to Title IX participation requirements.

 

 

TOTALLY INCORRECT. Syracuse announced they were dropping the program. After ha meeting they were given four years to save the program by raising $2million to continue as non scholarship.or $6million fully endowed. Tommy Hilfiger made it clear he would 100% match whatever was otherwise raised. The other EIWA schools immediately raised $100,000. The Syracuse wrestling alumni couldn't even raise $100,000 of the additional $900,000. Tommy Hilfiger could have done it all, but if that is all the wrestling alumni cared...  

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On 3/2/2019 at 5:25 PM, Marcus Cisero said:

Want to make wrestling more competitive with nearly double the participants, then reinstate all the MEN’s wrestling programs that were eliminated by this sickening PC garbage known as Title IX.

Go ahead, excoriate me – I can handle it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS3KoG3f_es

 

 

There are 14 teams in the SEC, can you begin by listing when each university lost its wrestling program?

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51 minutes ago, rpbobcat said:

Its not just money,its also participation requirements.

A few years ago there was an article about  Syracuse  dropping wrestling because of funding.

The team raised enough money to fund themselves.

Syracuse still dropped the program due to Title IX participation requirements.

 

 

This happened at Marquette too.

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15 minutes ago, RichB said:

TOTALLY INCORRECT. Syracuse announced they were dropping the program. After ha meeting they were given four years to save the program by raising $2million to continue as non scholarship.or $6million fully endowed. Tommy Hilfiger made it clear he would 100% match whatever was otherwise raised. The other EIWA schools immediately raised $100,000. The Syracuse wrestling alumni couldn't even raise $100,000 of the additional $900,000. Tommy Hilfiger could have done it all, but if that is all the wrestling alumni cared...  

That doesn't match the article I read.

if I remember correctly ,it was in either Time or the New York Times Magazine.

It said they had enough pledges to cover the team's budget.

It also said Syracuse made it clear it was dropping the program, whether they raised the money or not.

That was the whole point of the article,the impact of Title IX on that sport.

I tried to find the article in Time's archives,but couldn't.

If they got it wrong,I stand corrected.

 

Edited by rpbobcat

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