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Askren fight don’t open if you don’t want results

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1 minute ago, BIGRHINO1 said:

When facing a worthy opponent...There is always a degree of damage expected to win the war.. Ben is always a move or two ahead of his opponents in his strategy for superior position and he is in another world once he has you on the ground. It's a bad place to end up. 

Did you watch the fight?  He was on the ground getting his face smashed for the first minute of the fight.  

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16 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Intelligence? I just saw his faced practically get punched in.  Not exactly a brilliant move on his part.  

Come on, man. He got countered early by a guy with brute strength in a manner you can’t plan for and he had no idea would even be possible. That doesn’t change the fact that he IS a brilliant strategist, plans many moves ahead and minimizes his weaknesses while maximizing his strengths. 

He will flat out admit that he isn’t a conventional “athlete” and was never “strong”. So, it makes sense that a world class brute, the likes of which he has never seen, shocked him early. 

The crazy part is his making it through that beating. There is a great saying about best laid plans until getting punched in the mouth. Still, he found a way!

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16 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

He will flat out admit that he isn’t a conventional “athlete” and was never “strong”. So, it makes sense that a world class brute, the likes of which he has never seen, shocked him early.

Askren would NEVER say he was "never strong". Quite the opposite. He's brute strong and is well aware of that fact. Seriously, do you think a guy can go unbeaten in MMA as long as he has, utilizing grappling against powerful opponents, without being very, very strong in his own right? I watched an interview with him early in his MMA career and he was complaining that some MMA guys didn't take him seriously because they thought he "was just really strong and had wrestled for 15 years". 

If you'd said Askren never LOOKED strong I'm sure he'd be the first to admit it. He's like Bo in that regard. Bo doesn't have a particularly impressive physique, but he's clearly one of the strongest guys in his weight class judging by the way he throws guys around on the mat. Sometimes guys are just strong as hell but don't show it in their appearance.

Edited by TobusRex

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2 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

Askren would NEVER say he was "never strong". Quite the opposite. He's brute strong and is well aware of that fact. I watched an interview with him early in his MMA career and he was complaining that some MMA guys didn't take him seriously because they thought he "was just really strong and had wrestled for 15 years".  If you'd said Askren never LOOKED strong I'm sure he'd be the first to admit it.

Did you watch the flo movie on him?  He LITERALLY said he wasn’t “strong”.  Now, he became a master at using leverage to compensate, but he has NEVER been conventionally strong. 

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8 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Did you watch the flo movie on him?  He LITERALLY said he wasn’t “strong”.  Now, he became a master at using leverage to compensate, but he has NEVER been conventionally strong. 

 

Nope, didn't watch it. But if he said that he's directly contradicting that interview from earlier in his career (and, worse yet, making me a liar).  Even if he did say that I don't believe it. A guy doesn't have his kind of achievements in wrestling without being strong as hell. I'd expect a guy who wrestled to understand that.

Btw, I added more to my response prior to reading this but apparently after you read my initial response.

 

Edited by TobusRex

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8 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Did you watch the fight?  He was on the ground getting his face smashed for the first minute of the fight.  

Yes, I also Watched to last part where Ben's hand was raised. That is the part that most people will remember.  I expect some damage in his  next fights as well..But  we will also see Ben's hand get raised. i am used to it...i have been watching the same thing for 13 years.  It's no mystery....Look...  Ben is not built like a guy from the cover of Muscle and Fitness magazine.  But sometimes looks can be very deceiving. Superior techniques, positioning and leverage can overcome  brute strength.  Watch  Ben's  NCAA final match as a Junior 

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26 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Did you watch the fight?  He was on the ground getting his face smashed for the first minute of the fight.  

Did you watch the fight?  Ben won.  And one guy manned up when his back was against the wall, while the other got submitted.

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7 minutes ago, KCMO2 said:

Did you watch the fight?  Ben won.  And one guy manned up when his back was against the wall, while the other got submitted.

Askren showed that big chin isn't just for show. Tough dude, but he lost a few IQ points in that fight.

Edited by TobusRex

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17 minutes ago, BIGRHINO1 said:

Yes, I also Watched to last part where Ben's hand was raised. That is the part that most people will remember.  I expect some damage in his  next fights as well..But  we will also see Ben's hand get raised. i am used to it...i have been watching the same thing for 13 years.  It's no mystery....Look...  Ben is not built like a guy from the cover of Muscle and Fitness magazine.  But sometimes looks can be very deceiving. Superior techniques, positioning and leverage can overcome  brute strength.  Watch  Ben's  NCAA final match as a Junior 

I was responding to you saying he is in another world once he has you on the ground.  I saw him get pummeled on the ground for a minute that fight. I don't think he was blocking those punches with his face on purpose.  I never denied that he showed toughness and fought back to win, but he took more damage in 60 seconds than the rest of his career combined.  It's clear though that he is going to take a lot of damage in his UFC career.  In my opinion, it's unfortunately only a matter of time before he gets knocked out. 

13 minutes ago, KCMO2 said:

Did you watch the fight?  Ben won.  And one guy manned up when his back was against the wall, while the other got submitted.

See my response above.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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30 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

 

Nope, didn't watch it. But if he said that he's directly contradicting that interview from earlier in his career (and, worse yet, making me a liar).  Even if he did say that I don't believe it. A guy doesn't have his kind of achievements in wrestling without being strong as hell. I'd expect a guy who wrestled to understand that.

Btw, I added more to my response prior to reading this but apparently after you read my initial response.

 

I wrestled several great wrestlers that did NOT have conventional strength. Again, some guys are exceptional at creating leverage that may be perceived as strength. In fact, Askren pointed out that he was literally getting horsed around his true freshman year in the room and eventually resorted to “funk” to combat the strength disparity and his wrestling became highly cerebral. 

Now, I am not saying he is/was a weakling, but he was rarely the stronger guy on the mat when wrestling a solid DI opponent. 

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Billy is mad his guy lost. Askren said in his gesture film he isnt strong, but he is smart and plans ahead. I was surprised he endured that early beating and won in the same round. If you dont want a fight stopped dont go limp, even for a second 

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Just watched it for the first time on Youtube. This guy gets slammed and pounded. Still ends up winning. Passed on stitches and immediately tries to go coach his friend. Speaks for 10 minutes at the post fight conference more lucidly than Dana White after 12 hours of sleep and a large coffee.

Lets face it, Ben Askren is pure Gold. He is MONEY for the UFC. They now have a golden goose who wants to lay golden eggs., yet Dana won't sit with him to discuss a game plan?? 

Replace Dana White simultaneously while replacing Tom Brands. 

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3 hours ago, MSU158 said:

I wrestled several great wrestlers that did NOT have conventional strength. Again, some guys are exceptional at creating leverage that may be perceived as strength. In fact, Askren pointed out that he was literally getting horsed around his true freshman year in the room and eventually resorted to “funk” to combat the strength disparity and his wrestling became highly cerebral. 

Now, I am not saying he is/was a weakling, but he was rarely the stronger guy on the mat when wrestling a solid DI opponent

Okay, I can kinda buy that, maybe. I do have some questions for you though: 1) what do you mean by "did NOT have conventional strength"?  Very weak or very strong? 2) what do you define as a "solid D1 opponent"? Not arguing with you, just curious.

I totally get the leverage comment. Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world -  Archimedes
 

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27 minutes ago, Marcus Cisero said:

Just watched it for the first time on Youtube. This guy gets slammed and pounded. Still ends up winning. Passed on stitches and immediately tries to go coach his friend. Speaks for 10 minutes at the post fight conference more lucidly than Dana White after 12 hours of sleep and a large coffee.

Lets face it, Ben Askren is pure Gold. He is MONEY for the UFC. They now have a golden goose who wants to lay golden eggs., yet Dana won't sit with him to discuss a game plan?? 

Replace Dana White simultaneously while replacing Tom Brands. 

 

You mentioning Brands reminds me of another Hawkeye wrestler. Brent Metcalf. I always thought he'd be a complete monster if he went MMA. Glad he didn't, he seems like a good guy and I don't want his brain scrambled.

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56 minutes ago, Perry said:

Billy is mad his guy lost. Askren said in his gesture film he isnt strong, but he is smart and plans ahead. I was surprised he endured that early beating and won in the same round. If you dont want a fight stopped dont go limp, even for a second 

I'm not a Robbie Lawler fan- I called him a roided up freak earlier in this thread.  Askren is going to run into a lot of trouble in the UFC based off of that fight.  He is completely one dimensional, and the only thing impressive about that performance was that it showed he is able to take a beating and keep fighting. The problem with his strategy of walking into punches until he can force a takedown is that the human brain can only take so many punches.  The brain is not able to regenerate tissue as effectively as the rest of the body, so the damage really adds up over time.  

Askren was one of the all time great college wrestlers because he was able to develop a truly unique and original style to go with him being extraordinarily dangerous in all three position.  

He was a very good, but not as exceptional international wrestler because his style did not translate as effectively to freestyle. 

In terms of MMA, he completely lacks any standup ability or power.  Also, he is slow.   Those are glaring weaknesses that were just exploited in the first minute of this fight and will continue to be exploited until he retires. MMA requires more athleticism, quickness, and explosiveness than NCAA wrestling...and the consequences are an order of magnitude more grave (permanent brain damage).  I think he can beat anyone in the division, but his style will also leave him exposed to getting knocked out by almost anyone in the top 10.  

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9 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

I'm not a Robbie Lawler fan- I called him a roided up freak earlier in this thread.  Askren is going to run into a lot of trouble in the UFC based off of that fight.  He is completely one dimensional, and the only thing impressive about that performance was that it showed he is able to take a beating and keep fighting. The problem with his strategy of walking into punches until he can force a takedown is that the human brain can only take so many punches.  The brain is not able to regenerate tissue as effectively as the rest of the body, so the damage really adds up over time.  

Askren was one of the all time great college wrestlers because he was able to develop a truly unique and original style to go with him being extraordinarily dangerous in all three position.  

He was a very good, but not as exceptional international wrestler because his style did not translate as effectively to freestyle. 

In terms of MMA, he completely lacks any standup ability or power.  Also, he is slow.   Those are glaring weaknesses that were just exploited in the first minute of this fight and will continue to be exploited until he retires. MMA requires more athleticism, quickness, and explosiveness than NCAA wrestling...and the consequences are an order of magnitude more grave (permanent brain damage).  I think he can beat anyone in the division, but his style will also leave him exposed to getting knocked out by almost anyone in the top 10.  

Although your argument has some truth to it, it is overly exaggerated. Askren did NOT really want to fight Lawler, knowing he was about the worst matchup possible. He had  the wrestling experience along with brute strength and serious power punching. Still, the ONLY reason he got to use those strikes was the crazy, brutish counter he used to bring Askren into essentially a fully standing fireman’s and then drop him straight down onto the top of his head. Askren admitted that the impact of that fall dazed him and left him open to that flurry of punches after. Remember, he was rightly bragging about how little he had been punched in quite some time. Granted he wasn’t fighting the cream of the crop that the UFC supplies, but his style still is not a slow, straight forward, plodding, wide open target that you imply. Also, let’s not forget that the guy is 36. 

White waited this long for a reason. He was hoping to embarrass Askren, who may have legitimately lost a step. This is even further proven by already trying to force a rematch.  There may be a handful of better overall fighters than Lawler in the UFC, but Askren’s style matches up better against them.   I would really like to see him go up against Usman after watching him dismantle Woodley with mainly wrestling.  Could he do that against Askren?  But, I would expect that White will keep him as far away from the belt as possible and Askren really only wants to fight the guys he doesn’t like and has had some Twitter wars with.....

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38 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

Okay, I can kinda buy that, maybe. I do have some questions for you though: 1) what do you mean by "did NOT have conventional strength"?  Very weak or very strong? 2) what do you define as a "solid D1 opponent"? Not arguing with you, just curious.

I totally get the leverage comment. Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world -  Archimedes
 

1.) can barely bench press your own weight. Can’t climb a rope. And as far as straight wrestling goes, not being able to straight up suck a guy in who is fully sprawled and lift him right off the mat. 

2.). Solid is over .500 against other over .500 competition. So, about the top 35-40% of DI starters. 

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6 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Although your argument has some truth to it, it is overly exaggerated. Askren did NOT really want to fight Lawler, knowing he was about the worst matchup possible. He had  the wrestling experience along with brute strength and serious power punching. Still, the ONLY reason he got to use those strikes was the crazy, brutish counter he used to bring Askren into essentially a fully standing fireman’s and then drop him straight down onto the top of his head. Askren admitted that the impact of that fall dazed him and left him open to that flurry of punches after. Remember, he was rightly bragging about how little he had been punched in quite some time. Granted he wasn’t fighting the cream of the crop that the UFC supplies, but his style still is not a slow, straight forward, plodding, wide open target that you imply. Also, let’s not forget that the guy is 36. 

White waited this long for a reason. He was hoping to embarrass Askren, who may have legitimately lost a step. This is even further proven by already trying to force a rematch.  There may be a handful of better overall fighters than Lawler in the UFC, but Askren’s style matches up better against them.   I would really like to see him go up against Usman after watching him dismantle Woodley with mainly wrestling.  Could he do that against Askren?  But, I would expect that White will keep him as far away from the belt as possible and Askren really only wants to fight the guys he doesn’t like and has had some Twitter wars with.....

I guess only time will tell whether Robbie Lawler was really a bad matchup for Askren or whether the entire division will give him trouble.  I tend to believe it's the latter, although I do think he will be very successful against those who have zero takedown defense.   

 

In terms of Dana White.  Dana is a billionaire and doesn't care about Askren at all. He doesn't have some big conspiracy to ruin his life. Ben smartly is playing up a feud between them to try to get media exposure.  He's very good with that.  Dana probably just sees a boring fighter who almost got knocked out in his debut.  The only people that REALLY matter to him right now are Conor, Khabib, and Jones.  Those three fighters are worth more to the UFC than everyone else combined.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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1 minute ago, MSU158 said:

1.) can barely bench press your own weight. Can’t climb a rope. And as far as straight wrestling goes, not being able to straight up suck a guy in who is fully sprawled and lift him right off the mat. 

2.). Solid is over .500 against other over .500 competition. So, about the top 35-40% of DI starters. 

 

Thanks for clarifying.

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While I’m sure he’s stronger now then early in his wrestling crew, there are interviews out there that he explains that he developed his “funk” style of wrestling because he felt he wasn’t as strong as some of the best...


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This is a nightmare match up for Ben.

Lawler is hard take down and vicious puncher.

Boss doesn't like Ben so he will re run it.

Got give Ben tons of props for hanging in there and finding a way. He could have quit.

Hype will be unreal for next fight.

Funky is da man

 

Frank C

 

Edited by cangemi

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The word on Ben on these forums for so long is that he has freakish strength.  The Flo film dismantled that idea. Have both Askren and Coach Smith talking about how non-strong he is.  Examples above.  Amazing.  Something seems to not compute.  His ability to suck a leg in seemed unreal at the time.  But he can’t climb a rope and was embarrassed in front of everyone?  What?  Weird.

Wish I saw the fight.  Someone posted about his strategy of eating punches to get in will hurt his brain.  Seems like that has not been his strategy.  He boasts about not getting punched.  Sounds like we’ve learned from this fight that he can take punches and weather a storm.  Impressive.  Anonther feather in his cap.

 

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13 minutes ago, nom said:

The word on Ben on these forums for so long is that he has freakish strength.  The Flo film dismantled that idea. Have both Askren and Coach Smith talking about how non-strong he is.  Examples above.  Amazing.  Something seems to not compute.  His ability to suck a leg in seemed unreal at the time.  But he can’t climb a rope and was embarrassed in front of everyone?  What?  Weird.

Wish I saw the fight.  Someone posted about his strategy of eating punches to get in will hurt his brain.  Seems like that has not been his strategy.  He boasts about not getting punched.  Sounds like we’ve learned from this fight that he can take punches and weather a storm.  Impressive.  Anonther feather in his cap.

 

But, he really didn’t suck a leg in from a disadvantaged strength position. He was always using new techniques that, at the time, no one knew how to stop or counter. So he was posting, angling, passing, etc. and that brought the legs into him with next to no resistance.  He was truly an innovator and found a way to mask any deficiencies while maximizes strengths. 

Again, I am not saying he is a weakling or that he claimed to be. I am sure he had very solid core strength. He just didn’t rely on strength to be successful. 

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