Jump to content
MSU158

Askren fight don’t open if you don’t want results

Recommended Posts

I don't think Lawler was out.  He was relaxing to get through the moment, keeping his chin tucked so the choke stayed on the head and off the neck.  Not sure why the ref checked to see if the arm was limp and then, when Lawler moved it to show he wasn't out, the ref stopped the fight.   

Ben showed he can take a punch to an even greater degree than he has in the past.  But I wish he would stop because the brain is not meant to take the type of abuse he received in that first minute -- absolutely brutal shots. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Broomstick said:

I don't think Lawler was out.  He was relaxing to get through the moment, keeping his chin tucked so the choke stayed on the head and off the neck.  Not sure why the ref checked to see if the arm was limp and then, when Lawler moved it to show he wasn't out, the ref stopped the fight.   

Ben showed he can take a punch to an even greater degree than he has in the past.  But I wish he would stop because the brain is not meant to take the type of abuse he received in that first minute -- absolutely brutal shots. 

The ref's most important job is to make sure fighters aren't seriously injured. In the Askren-Lawler fight, the ref's concern was that Lawler was being strangled -- i.e., he wasn't getting blood to his brain. If Lawler wanted the fight to continue, the burden was on him to demonstrate to the ref that he was not unconscious. In the ref's opinion and in the commission's opinion, Lawler did not meet that burden. So even if Lawler was never unconscious, the ref was right to call a technical submission. Them's the breaks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Katie said:

The ref's most important job is to make sure fighters aren't seriously injured. In the Askren-Lawler fight, the ref's concern was that Lawler was being strangled -- i.e., he wasn't getting blood to his brain. If Lawler wanted the fight to continue, the burden was on him to demonstrate to the ref that he was not unconscious. In the ref's opinion and in the commission's opinion, Lawler did not meet that burden. So even if Lawler was never unconscious, the ref was right to call a technical submission. Them's the breaks.

Lawler raised his arm when the ref grabbed it.  What else was he supposed to do if you assume he couldn't hear (or maybe even talk) because his ears were covered?  As the announcers said afterwards, it was a bad call but understandably bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Broomstick said:

Lawler raised his arm when the ref grabbed it.  What else was he supposed to do if you assume he couldn't hear (or maybe even talk) because his ears were covered?  As the announcers said afterwards, it was a bad call but understandably bad.

At the end of the day, the burden was on Lawler to show he was conscious.

Edited by Katie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dailycaller.com/2019/03/03/ben-askren-robbie-lawler-ufc-235

see it while you can.  Arm falls, limp.  Announcers saying ‘he’s out’!  Ref right there.  Gets up close.  Calls the fight.  Can not blame the ref here.  He did his job.  That arm falling limp is a screaming signal that has to be acted on.  If he wasn’t out then Robbie is a gigantic idiot for letting his arm do that.  Has to blame himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Katie said:

The burden was on Lawler to show he was conscious. And that's how it should be in order to prevent serious injuries. Being strangled is no joke.

Right, and, in line with the ring side announcers, I think he met the burden by raising/moving his arm when the ref grabbed it.  Of course the ref and the commission don't think he met the burden, but it is in their interest to say that. 

I think Lawler knew the choke was in a spot where we was safe from being choked out, but he would benefit by Askren blowing so much energy on the hold.  Obviously Lawler was too cavalier in not doing more to get of the move or show he knew what he was doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Broomstick said:

Right, and, in line with the ring side announcers, I think he met the burden by raising/moving his arm when the ref grabbed it.  Of course the ref and the commission don't think he met the burden, but it is in their interest to say that. 

I think Lawler knew the choke was in a spot where we was safe from being choked out, but he would benefit by Askren blowing so much energy on the hold.  Obviously Lawler was too cavalier in not doing more to get of the move or show he knew what he was doing.

I think the commentators were of the opinion that Lawler was never out, and that's why they called the stoppage an "understandable mistake." But that was their view in hindsight.

The ref did not have the luxury of seeing Lawler's reaction immediately after the stoppage was called. The ref was in the moment, looking for a sign of consciousness in order to protect Lawler's safety. In the moment, I think it was a good call.

If there was a mistake, it belonged to Lawler. He should have known to demonstrate that he was conscious while in a stranglehold.

Edited by Katie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People honestly don't think Askren's grip strength was in the 95% + range of collegiate wrestlers, and subsequently MMA fighters?  Really?

Sure, he couldn't bench a lot, but if he grabs anything he has it until he wants to let him go.  Watch that Pro bout a few years ago against Quintin Wright where he just grabs a Russian tie over and over again and climbs to a TD.  It's absolutely crazy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Katie said:

I think the commentators were of the opinion that Lawler was never out, and that's why they called the stoppage an "understandable mistake." But that was their view in hindsight.

The ref did not have the luxury of seeing Lawler's reaction immediately after the stoppage was called. The ref was in the moment, looking for a sign of consciousness in order to protect Lawler's safety. In the moment, I think it was a good call.

If there was a mistake, it belonged to Lawler. He should have known to demonstrate that he was conscious while in a stranglehold.

I thought he did demonstrate it by raising his arm when ref grabbed it.  In that sequence, I don't understand  why the ref grabbed his arm and then, when Lawler showed a reaction by raising the arm up, the ref calls the fight?  I guess the ref could  not see Lawler raise his own arm, and the ref must not have felt Lawler move the arm sufficiently when he had physical contact. 

I agree Lawler could have done more, but I think he was in the zone of "relax, let Askren pump his arms out and then, when he's done, I'll go back to knocking his head off his body like I did for the first minute of the fight . . ."

I am a big fan of Askren but just not a fan of him in the UFC where he is going to face strikers like Lawler who are going to knock his brain around, win or lose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Broomstick said:

I thought he did demonstrate it by raising his arm when ref grabbed it.  In that sequence, I don't understand  why the ref grabbed his arm and then, when Lawler showed a reaction by raising the arm up, the ref calls the fight?  I guess the ref could  not see Lawler raise his own arm, and the ref must not have felt Lawler move the arm sufficiently when he had physical contact. 

I agree Lawler could have done more, but I think he was in the zone of "relax, let Askren pump his arms out and then, when he's done, I'll go back to knocking his head off his body like I did for the first minute of the fight . . ."

I am a big fan of Askren but just not a fan of him in the UFC where he is going to face strikers like Lawler who are going to knock his brain around, win or lose.

It was an unfortunate ending to the fight in terms of determining who the better fighter is. 

Of course, I totally sympathize with the ref. He doesn’t want to blow a call, but on the other hand he doesn’t want to be responsible for brain damage. 

Sucks all around. 

As for MMA, boxing, and football. I would never participate in those sports because of the potential for CTE. At the moment, I think we should allow people to choose those sports. But I would listen to arguments against that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, after examining pictures of Askren’s submission, at least one on Lawler’s ears appears to be free (at least in the still shots I saw).

So that adds a new spin to his statement that he didn’t hear the ref because his ears were covered. 

Edited by Katie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Katie said:

I think the commentators were of the opinion that Lawler was never out, and that's why they called the stoppage an "understandable mistake." But that was their view in hindsight.

 

The one guy might have thought that, but I’m pretty sure the guy yelling “he’s going out! He’s out! He’s out!” thought he was out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

The one guy might have thought that, but I’m pretty sure the guy yelling “he’s going out! He’s out! He’s out!” thought he was out

I don’t recall that from last night, but it doesn’t surprise me. I thought Lawler looked out too.

After the fight, though, they made comments about the stoppage with the benefit of hindsight. Those comments are what I remember. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Katie said:

I don’t recall that from last night, but it doesn’t surprise me. I thought Lawler looked out too.

After the fight, though, they made comments about the stoppage with the benefit of hindsight. Those comments are what I remember. 

It’s in the link nom posted in the tweet by “Bulgogi Jones”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have watched the clip a dozen times and am convinced Lawler was out at least temporarily. Dude goes LIMP.  You cannot deny that if  you are objective. That is all a ref needs to see to legitimately stop a fight. I've done plenty of BJJ and gotten choked unconscious both in a flash and for longer, and those "flashes" can tun into out for a long time if the choke is held. I learned a long time ago to tap in practice before either happens or you're likely to get woken up with bloodshot eyes.  I don't think we'd be having any controversy if the ref hadn't stopped it because Lawler would've been out cold on the canvas.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I left this fight thinking that Askren was completely superior to Lawler. 

Askren got a little overzealous in his first takedown attempt, and paid dearly for it. I'd chalk that up to jitters. However, he took Lawlers best shots here, no question lesser fighters would've been done. 

After a slight recovery he pretty easily walked Lawler into the cage, got his TD and ended the fight. It felt like he could've done that all day. 

If anything, I think Lawler got lucky as he could've wound up looking worse. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The commentators clearly state 'He's out!!'    THREE TIMES.   From the angle in the clip I saw, I can't see what happens when Herb tugs at Robbie's arm.  The ref is blocking the view.

Frankly, the only proof needed is seeing Robbie's arm drop limp like that.  That was not "I'm going to relax'  ... bull****.  That was sudden lack of any muscle tension.    Boom ... you need to step in for the safety of the fighter.  Anyone that is disagreeing needs to see the clip again.

See the link I shared above.

Edited by nom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, nom said:

Anyone that is disagreeing needs to see the clip again.

Or is highly biased. Limp = out. No two ways about it. I wish the ref hadn't stopped it so that there would be no debate. Lawler would've woken up a minute later with bursted capillaries. He was not getting out of that clean choke.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, just realized that if you do watch the clip for longer, it does have another angle and Lawler does seem to move his arm on his own.  Hmmmm.  But that arm going limp is so freaking clear.  Hard to argue against the stoppage.

Now, some are saying that Askren was out for a moment when he was under assault?  He bounced awake though.  I have no idea.  I do see in one moment he did seem to pause and appeared like he could be out or at least super phased.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Katie said:

At the post-fight presser, there were three opinions expressed about Askren’s technical submission:

The rep from the Nevada Athletic Commission said Lawler was clearly out, even if only momentarily. He said it’s possible Lawler wasn’t even aware he was out. He noted that Lawler’s arm just dropped and dangled there and that Lawler didn’t respond when he ref asked if he was ok  

Lawler said he wasn’t out. He said he couldn’t hear the ref because Askren’s hold covered his ears (which is why he didn’t respond to the ref). He said he thought about slamming Ben, but at the moment was waiting for him to burn his arm strength out. Lawler wanted a rematch.

Askren said his job is to fight, not to be the ref. He didn’t think both of Lawler’s ears were covered, and he saw Lawler being unresponsive to the ref. He also said that every fighter is instructed to demonstrate to the ref that they are actively in a fight and defending themself. Ben did not want a rematch. He wants to winner of Till-Mavidal. 

In a post-fight interview, Dana said he was going to do the Lawler-Askren fight again. 

One issue I have with Lawlers statement is he said he didnt hear the ref to respond, then in another statement he said he gave the thumbs up to ref (a very weak one on video)...of course both were after he watched video.  Dana White is not 100% correct either in saying you wake up groggy...that's BS.  My brother and I used to put each other in the Gagne Sleeper until the other went limp when we were teenagers.  Neither of us knew we were even out..the other guy would have to tell.....maybe if you held it for a while..  When we came to we went right back to rasslin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, DrStrange said:

you are right - people shouldn't have free will. hows was that bernie/warren/hillary rally this weekend?  

.... a guy i used to coach with would say to clowns like you---"go have sex with yourself"........... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...