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Chandler Rogers Odd Man Out....

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Personally I would have set the line up at:

165   Smith     Jr  2x AA

174   Rogers   Sr  2x AA

184   Smith     SR  1x AA

197   Weigel    Sr   1x AA

odd man out would be Geer who is only a soph and never an AA

The only question would have been who gets 165 with loser going to 174

That, I believe, is the "right" thing to do.  Its not as if John's decision would give the team a chance to upset PSU this year

Edited by okwrestle

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Unless I missed it above, do we have an answer on whether Rogers was allowed to challenge at 174 after losing to Smith?

Also would be interested to know how the "best of three" series with Rogers and Smith played out - did Smith win two in a row? were they close?

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Cody Brewer won me a few hundred bucks that year in my wrestling pool :).  I picked him to win it and when he didn't he pool points I got got me the cash by a long shot :) 

 

as for Smith and Rogers and the unfairness...    Considering how much it was discussed and anticipated just on these boards I am sure Rogers was aware of the situation for a very long time.  Possibly even prior to season.  When i was wrestling in college everyone had a pretty good idea of what was coming the following season shortly after the current season.  I doubt Rogers or anyone on the OSU team was blind sided in this.  I think all you can ask of a coach is for him to be up front. That doesn't mean what is said never chances.  Things always change due to unintended circumstances. I sure 4 years ago nobody planned for there to be a logjam.. and if you sign with top schools you have to know that is a possibility.   Anyway, Being upfront means that when things due change because if circumstances you are transparent about the chance and the circumstances that lead to it.  

What always sucks about these situations, in life in general, is that it will always feel personal to the person affected by a decision whether it is personal or not by the person making the decision.

 

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It also seems that the way it is being looked at is if Smith will let Rogers go up and wrestle off since he let JoJo wrestle Chandler for his spot.  It also keeps being implied he did it because it was his son and he wanted to get him in lineup.  My question is if it wasn't his son would he have just made a coaches decision like often happens in college.  

He sees those guys every day in the room.  When coaches make those moves they are usually pretty confident if what the outcome will be.  For that reason many times there isn't even a wrestle off.  If JoJo wasn't his son would he have just put him in over Rogers.  These things happen.  Look at Nevils situation. Maybe he had the wrestle off to give Chandler an opportunity.  A opportunity he wouldn't have had if it wouldn't have been his son.  To me John didn't just hand JoJo the spot.  He had to get the weight down and win a 2 of 3 wrestle off.  It seems to me he put extra barriers in place that JoJo had to get around that others wouldn't have had to go through because it was his son. 

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1 hour ago, Fletcher said:

Unless I missed it above, do we have an answer on whether Rogers was allowed to challenge at 174 after losing to Smith?

Also would be interested to know how the "best of three" series with Rogers and Smith played out - did Smith win two in a row? were they close?

Smith won 7-4 and 3-2

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13 hours ago, newuser69 said:

This is what I would classify as "fair."

However, I'd also classify settling this with a Redshirt Senior the week of conference tourneys as "disgusting."

Say what you will, you shouldn't do your people like that. 

 

Yep. It is fair, but it is going to be used to recruit against Oklahoma State and Smith and they earned that.

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5 hours ago, TobusRex said:

 

If Joe wins the Big 12 the, presumably, he'd jump Ashworth in the rankings. I think Ashworth is ranked #9, so Joe would , again presumably, be at LEAST the #9 seed at NCAAs. And that's kind of a worst case scenario if he wins Big 12.

I see Joe being a #6 or #7 seed at NCAAs, assuming he wins the Big 12.

If Joe Smith wins the Big 12 tournament, he will, at most, have 4 matches under his belt at 165. This means he will not have a coaches ranking AT ALL since you need at least 5 matches to qualify for one. With no RPI, no coaches ranking, and very few quality win points, he is going to get a very poor seed. He might be better off drawing a first round match against Ashworth, losing a close one, then wrestling back for 3rd. It would give the coaches the chance to vote him into the rankings, though it would, of course, hurt his win percentage and conference finish.

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13 hours ago, Idaho said:

If Smith were a man of his word and believes what he says then there would be another wrestle off for 174 to put the best team on the mat....not a special created situation for only his son. 

You're insinuating a level of knowledge you obviously don't have. 

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While I don't always agree that a wrestle off is the best decision for deciding who gets the starting spot, I do see the merit in it. Sometimes it's better to wrestle who will score more points in a tournament setting. While this is more subjective, it can yield better returns. In either case, I see (a healthy and weight managed without lingering issues) Joe as the guy to go with here.

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5 hours ago, unbiased said:

In 2015 Cody Brewer was 15-1 going into Big 12's and was the second seed behind Earl Hall (who I believe was ranked in the top 5 in the country). Brewer beat Hall and was the Big 12 champ. Brewer was then seeded 13 at Nationals. Hall was seeded 6th. These are far from the same scenario but I would think that this would prove that Joe wouldn't get as high of a seed as some might think.

If I remember correctly the NCAA was punishing the Big 12 that year for only having 3 teams in the Big 12 tournament and all Big 12

wrestlers who made the tournament had to get an at large bid.

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1 minute ago, mlbruem said:

If I remember correctly the NCAA was punishing the Big 12 that year for only having 3 teams in the Big 12 tournament and all Big 12

wrestlers who made the tournament had to get an at large bid.

There were four teams that year and the other three wrestlers at 133 had allocations but Brewer did not.

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53 minutes ago, AlexSteenTOM said:

If Joe Smith wins the Big 12 tournament, he will, at most, have 4 matches under his belt at 165. This means he will not have a coaches ranking AT ALL since you need at least 5 matches to qualify for one. With no RPI, no coaches ranking, and very few quality win points, he is going to get a very poor seed. He might be better off drawing a first round match against Ashworth, losing a close one, then wrestling back for 3rd. It would give the coaches the chance to vote him into the rankings, though it would, of course, hurt his win percentage and conference finish.

Need 8 matches for a win percentage so that's out for him anyway. 

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So the moral of the story is that you can save your body, avoid injury and a big weight cut, come out later in the season, slowly get down to weight, and then take the spot of the guy that has been pulling the weight all year and taking the lumps for the team.  I get that Smith beat him 2 out of 3, but the situation still smells a little.   I'm an OSU fan, but it just doesn't feel right to me.  I'm also not convinced that their best lineup doesn't somehow include all three of those guys. I'm curious as to whether this will have an effect on the team in the post season - I have no idea what the dynamic in the room is like. 

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The issue to me, and we probably can not know, is how was it was communicated to the team?   If they knew this was the plan and there would be a wrestle off well.......   If they really had no clue what was happening and all of a sudden a wrestle off occurred, that's not good.   Maybe it sounds stupid but I have been part of this more than once.

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20 minutes ago, WRfan1 said:

So the moral of the story is that you can save your body, avoid injury and a big weight cut, come out later in the season, slowly get down to weight, and then take the spot of the guy that has been pulling the weight all year and taking the lumps for the team.  I get that Smith beat him 2 out of 3, but the situation still smells a little.   I'm an OSU fan, but it just doesn't feel right to me.  I'm also not convinced that their best lineup doesn't somehow include all three of those guys. I'm curious as to whether this will have an effect on the team in the post season - I have no idea what the dynamic in the room is like. 

 

You are kind of ignoring the fact that Joe has been at 174 for the last couple months because the coaches wanted him there with Preston's injury. This would have been decided months ago if Preston never got injured. Joe to 165 has been the plan all along but the injury at 197 and lineup shuffling delayed it. 

Do you punish Joe and not let him wrestle for the spot because he has been wrestling at the weight the coaches wanted (174)? That doesn't exactly seem fair. 

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I don't think this would be very controversial if his son wasn't involved. The weights were shifted in the first place because of Weigel's injury. John Smith can't really tell Geer "thanks for bumping up and filling in, but you can't earn your spot at 184 back because you're a sophomore". And that leads to a waterfall moment where Jacobe Smith and Joe Smith should also be given the opportunity to earn a final roster spot at a lower weight, as well, if they were beaten out by another guy dropping down. 

The only "fair" way I could see John Smith saying no to all of this is if either Joe or Jacobe decided to drop because they decided their post-season chances were better, not because they were beaten out.

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Yep, I agree with alot of others - it's unfortunate to get decided this late but Weigel's injury changed everything.  And maybe him coming back was unexpected as well.  I don't think there was any malice or favoritism on Coach Smith's part here.  I think at the end of the day JoJo wanted to be at 165 and Jacobe wanted to be at 174 - forcing two AAs to wrestle up from weights they can make isn't fair either.  There was no optimal solution here, pick your best weight and have a wrestleoff to determine it. 

Edited by Gantry

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5 hours ago, scramble said:

It also seems that the way it is being looked at is if Smith will let Rogers go up and wrestle off since he let JoJo wrestle Chandler for his spot.  It also keeps being implied he did it because it was his son and he wanted to get him in lineup. 

And then if Chandler Rogers beat Jacobe for the 174 spot, would Jacobe get to wrestleoff Geer for the 184 spot.

 

I doubt it that would be a lot of musical chairs right before Conference. 

 

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2 hours ago, WRfan1 said:

So the moral of the story is that you can save your body, avoid injury and a big weight cut, come out later in the season, slowly get down to weight, and then take the spot of the guy that has been pulling the weight all year and taking the lumps for the team.  I get that Smith beat him 2 out of 3, but the situation still smells a little.   I'm an OSU fan, but it just doesn't feel right to me.  I'm also not convinced that their best lineup doesn't somehow include all three of those guys. I'm curious as to whether this will have an effect on the team in the post season - I have no idea what the dynamic in the room is like. 

The moral of the story is only apparent if you actually pay attention.  

If you're an OSU fan like you say, then you know Joe would have been at 165 by the Scuffle but Joe, Jacobe Smith, and Geer all moved/stayed up to help the team after Weigel's injury.  If Weigel doesn't get hurt then Chandler loses his spot 2 months ago.  

Rodgers cannot beat Joe and he cannot beat Jacobe.  That is terrible for him, but I cannot believe how many people think that fair is when the guy who isn't the best gets the spot.  

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