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Is Shakur Rasheed overrated at #2?

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Again, I think shak could be a potential finalist. Im not questioning his ability.  Thats just not how rankings work. Good job to psu though, on their inevitable big ten and ncaa championship. They wrestled well today.

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Just now, BigTenFanboy said:

All rankings are done by gut feeling first, then data second. They're not purely objective. Purely data based objective rankings are bad. That's why rankings are done by people. People are not purely objective. My point is the subjective compent needs to be greater.

You are wrong. Like really really wrong. They use data, matches, first, that is why freshman enter the rankings so low. I could be wrong but I doubt Steveson entered this season number 1, despite a lot of people believing he was.

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2 minutes ago, Molsen said:

Again, I think shak could be a potential finalist. Im not questioning his ability.  Thats just not how rankings work. Good job to psu though, on their inevitable big ten and ncaa championship. They wrestled well today.

You're right, it's not how rankings work. And I'm saying how rankings work can be greatly improved.

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2 minutes ago, Molsen said:

You are wrong. Like really really wrong. They use data, matches, first, that is why freshman enter the rankings so low. I could be wrong but I doubt Steveson entered this season number 1, despite a lot of people believing he was.

And he should have been!

 

And I'm not wrong, the rankings are wrong.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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2 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

You're right, it's not how rankings work. And I'm saying how rankings work can be greatly improved.

But they can also be completely wrong when just using opinion. Going data first, opinion second, will make you consistently closer by the end of the season, then gut feelings and opinion.

Edited by Molsen

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Just now, Molsen said:

But they can also be completely wrong. Going data first, opinion second, will make you consistently closer by the end of the season, then gut feelings and opinion.

No where did I say Gut feelings and opinion only. No where did I say to not use data. When data is not available use gut feeling. It's more powerful than you think.

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Just now, BigTenFanboy said:

No where did I say Gut feelings and opinion only. No where did I say to not use data. When data is not available use gut feeling. It's more powerful than you think.

The data was available.  Rasheed was a 7th place aa moving weightclasses, with aas that placed higher then 7th, ahead of him.. there was data. They did the right thing rankings wise. It didnt work out for them because cael is a hell of a coach, and had shak ready. Good for you guys. Doesnt mean the other rankings did it the right way because more times then not it would bite them. Data first. Then opinion. Or just rank every psu guy top 5, im sure there would be less back and forth then.

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2 minutes ago, Molsen said:

The data was available.  Rasheed was a 7th place aa moving weightclasses, with aas that placed higher then 7th, ahead of him.. there was data. They did the right thing rankings wise. It didnt work out for them because cael is a hell of a coach, and had shak ready. Good for you guys. Doesnt mean the other rankings did it the right way because more times then not it would bite them. Data first. Then opinion. Or just rank every psu guy top 5, im sure there would be less back and forth then.

Yes the other rankings did it the right way. You know how I know? Because they were right.

Again has NOTHING to do with PSU. Get off that train. Is has to doing with placing the wrestlers accurately compared to one another.

When you go purely on data like you suggest you have a debacle like seeding Mikey Carr 1st.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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9 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Yes the other rankings did it the right way. You know how I know? Because they were right.

Again has NOTHING to do with PSU. Get off that train. Is has to doing with placing the wrestlers accurately compared to one another.

When you go purely on data like you suggest you have a debacle like seeding Mikey Carr 1st.

The other rankings honestly got lucky. And when stoll was still undefeated, they got attacked because of the same thing. Not wrestling anyone, undefeated aa who moved up based off of people losing. Hypothetically if we entered the big tens and Stoll was undefeated, while still not wrestling anyone in the top 10, would you think he was deserving of being top 2? Shak was ranked 2 because others lost. Not gut feeling, and if you asked those rankers thats what they would say. 

 

Carrs seed was wrong. They didnt use all the data. They soley used big 10 results. That being said the guy who sent him on his downward spiral is fully capable of upsetting Lee also. Red is good.

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13 minutes ago, Molsen said:

The other rankings honestly got lucky. And when stoll was still undefeated, they got attacked because of the same thing. Not wrestling anyone, undefeated aa who moved up based off of people losing. Hypothetically if we entered the big tens and Stoll was undefeated, while still not wrestling anyone in the top 10, would you think he was deserving of being top 2? Shak was ranked 2 because others lost. Not gut feeling, and if you asked those rankers thats what they would say. 

 

Carrs seed was wrong. They didnt use all the data. They soley used big 10 results. That being said the guy who sent him on his downward spiral is fully capable of upsetting Lee also. Red is good.

I disagree. And no Stoll shouldnt have been ranked 1st. Gut feeling at the beginning of the season says he shouldnt have been.

https://www.flowrestling.org/events/6305684-2019-big-ten-wrestling-championship/videos?playing=6374318&limit=60

Heres what happens when you go all data like you said they should.

How do they fix it?Gut feeling. Use data to set the ground work. Then readjust by using your gut. Heres the secret that separates good rankers from bad rankers. Having a good gut.

Does it open yourself up to criticism? Sure, but if you're right in the end you then have a track record of knowing what you're talking about. If you rank Shakur 7th, you lose credibility. 

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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40 minutes ago, pish6969 said:

 


You lost any respect you had on this forum for the comment. Congrats. Ignore


Sent from my iPhone using 

 

Mr. ITG,

The respect I may or may not have had came from serving my countrymen for over 20 years, my wife and kids, and friends including a couple on this message board who I carry on a personal relationship with. Whether or not you specifically find my comment (which is true, was used to make a point & in no way condoned anything that happened) in bad taste, I don't give one **** about it or you and if you are now ignoring me it is a banner day in my life. If any of the adult posters on here think it was in bad taste or out of line, feel free to DM me and we can discuss it because I, unlike you, do not think I am perfect and have all the answers.

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And Pish, congratulations on your victory. You do deserve credit for putting it on the line.  I would gladly do it with McKenna vs Lee next time they wrestle if you would like.....


Thanks MSU. I must have missed this as spam artist, Molsen ruined my big night.

I wish you just came and said this to begin with and I wouldn’t have called you a snake.

I want no part of any bet with McKenna/Lee, never did. Not sure why you all of a sudden bring this up?

This was the fitting ending to my year long Shak crusade.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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To the moderators???

 

Can someone please do a thorough investigation into Molsen spamming last night?

 

I had my big night ruined because of his constant spamming with the old ranking debate.

 

Last night should have been nothing except congratulating me and he spammed the board.

 

While you’re at it. Can someone call Housebuy to teach him how to place a dig?

 

He can be reached at 1-800-EYES-CLOSED

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

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You've been Winn Dixie'd by a Paterno troll.

 

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

 

 

 

It’s the only person I’ve ever put on ignore. Totally out of left field for that comment. I’ve seen it on HR from some fools but even HR usually will police themselves or I just stay away from those threads. This thread was all about me being right about Shak and his comment had no place here

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I am a Rasheed homer. Have history with his high school coach.

I think he wrestled well. He really is more then just a cradle. He has great mat sense.

That said I'm rooting for Venz be on opposite side of bracket at Nationals.  He is extremely dangerous. You can see he is up to no good at all times. He had me edge of seat., Almost got Rasheed at end.

Frank C

 

Edited by cangemi

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9 hours ago, Molsen said:

Then they would be wrong more often. David taylor would have been ranked ahead of Dake after losing to him Rankings use date, predictions use gut feelings. Thats generally how it is done. Honestly im sure the other rankings guys that did have shak at 2 didnt do it because of gut feeling. They moved him up when others lost, which is flawed in a different way, but worked out for them this time.

 

Why is moving him up when others lost flawed?  Other guys losing is “data.”  The Stoll situation was different as he hardly wrestled, Shak only missed a few matches they just were almost all against good guys.

I think he should’ve been ranked #2 (nationally) due to his previous finish and not having lost while at least wrestling the majority of his matches, but I don’t think he should have been seeded #2 (in B1G’s) due to the lack of results against the top B10 opponents.

 

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21 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

 

Why is moving him up when others lost flawed?  Other guys losing is “data.”  The Stoll situation was different as he hardly wrestled, Shak only missed a few matches they just were almost all against good guys.

I think he should’ve been ranked #2 (nationally) due to his previous finish and not having lost while at least wrestling the majority of his matches, but I don’t think he should have been seeded #2 (in B1G’s) due to the lack of results against the top B10 opponents.

 

Because it then rewards ducking. Right now ducking is an issue because its not being punished. Teams could just schedule soft schedules, and get ranked high, which can influence coaches rankings. I'm not saying it can't be taken into consideration, but just because someone ahead of you loses, does not mean you should move up. Again with that logic UCF would have made the playoffs. Sure there are people that agree, but if you dont wrestle the top guys, theres no information that shows how good you are. 

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4 minutes ago, Molsen said:

Because it then rewards ducking. Right now ducking is an issue because its not being punished. Teams could just schedule soft schedules, and get ranked high, which can influence coaches rankings. I'm not saying it can't be taken into consideration, but just because someone ahead of you loses, does not mean you should move up. Again with that logic UCF would have made the playoffs. Sure there are people that agree, but if you dont wrestle the top guys, theres no information that shows how good you are. 

Seeding is different than ranking and at least at NCAA’s ducking has been punished in seeding.  I’d argue rankings are typically pretty close to predictions though, so I don’t think ducking should really impact rankings, but I think they should impact seedings.

Edited by 1032004

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2 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Seeding is different than ranking and at least at NCAA’s ducking has been punished.  I’d argue rankings are typically pretty close to predictions though, so I don’t think ducking should really impact rankings, but I think they should impact seedings.

Rankings guys make it very clear that rankings arent predictions, and usually their predictions differ from their rankings. And rankings can influence seeding though. So if you choose to duck, and end up getting a higher ranking because of it, it could influence coaches rankings and things like that.

Edited by Molsen

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