Jump to content
AnklePicker

"You're killing the sport of wrestling"

Recommended Posts

11 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Just watched that match.  No doubt Marinelli stopped offensive wrestling in the first period of that match.  Poorly reffed match.

Other than the part in the 2nd when he had Wick in a crackdown you mean?

You may have a point.  But please tell me when Wick actually started wrestling aggressively?  Trying anything other than riding parallel to get a cradle?  Maybe actually trying to turn Marinelli when he locked the cradle?  How about penetrating to a leg instead of trying to slap it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Other than the part in the 2nd when he had Wick in a crackdown you mean?

You may have a point.  But please tell me when Wick actually started wrestling aggressively?  Trying anything other than riding parallel to get a cradle?  Maybe actually trying to turn Marinelli when he locked the cradle?  How about penetrating to a leg instead of trying to slap it?

wait...isn't' a cross-body ride (which is what Wick is using to fish for his cradle), by definition, not a parallel ride?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, gromit said:

wait...isn't' a cross-body ride (which is what Wick is using to fish for his cradle), by definition, not a parallel ride?

I guess, but simply having a leg in does not equal offense. Wick and Wisconsin seem to think thats the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, gromit said:

wait...isn't' a cross-body ride (which is what Wick is using to fish for his cradle), by definition, not a parallel ride?

I would have to watch again , but I sure remember it as a parallel leg ride as opposed to being a cross  body ride.  And, I do believe there is a difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, BadgerMon said:

Marinelli made no attempt to get OUT of the cross-body ride. Somehow, this isn't viewed as stalling.

Ok, so Wicks whole offense from top is holding and waiting for Bull to come up. He is doing nothing else. Only way to defend that position is not coming straight up and can't really do anything else. They have come to an impasse. Stalemate 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BadgerMon said:

Marinelli made no attempt to get OUT of the cross-body ride. Somehow, this isn't viewed as stalling.

He may be going to school in Iowa, but he is not stupid.  He tried last year at nationals and was promptly counting  ceiling lights ... at least twice.

Brands has already did his job at intimidating the refs (see Midlands) on this subject..has worked well ....no more stall calls for Marenelli laying on his belly.  No refs want the peckerhead twins on their case.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BadgerMon said:

Marinelli made no attempt to get OUT of the cross-body ride. Somehow, this isn't viewed as stalling.

**** man, sometimes there is nothing you can do. If the faster guy is better at riding than you are escaping it can be a long damn period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Marinelli was hit for stalling, and he was also basing up over and over again.  I'm not sure what exactly you expect him to do, just give Wick the cradle that he's doing nothing to lock up?  Other than Marinelli getting to the one crackdown position, it was basically him basing up, and Wick breaking back down, over and over again.  You can say he never got to his feet, but what exactly did Wick do to create his own offense from top?  He literally was just waiting for Marinelli to put him in danger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

Marinelli was hit for stalling, and he was also basing up over and over again.  I'm not sure what exactly you expect him to do, just give Wick the cradle that he's doing nothing to lock up?  Other than Marinelli getting to the one crackdown position, it was basically him basing up, and Wick breaking back down, over and over again.  You can say he never got to his feet, but what exactly did Wick do to create his own offense from top?  He literally was just waiting for Marinelli to put him in danger.

LOL :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, TobusRex said:

LOL :D

I mean, I get it, I'm Iowa homer guy on this board, but seriously, what is Wick doing to create his own offense?  He's not trying to crunch Marinelli's head down to create the cradle himself, he's just waiting for Marinelli to put his own head close to his knee.  If Wick isn't taking any risk, why is Marinelli supposed to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

I mean, I get it, I'm Iowa homer guy on this board, but seriously, what is Wick doing to create his own offense?  He's not trying to crunch Marinelli's head down to create the cradle himself, he's just waiting for Marinelli to put his own head close to his knee.  If Wick isn't taking any risk, why is Marinelli supposed to?

Actually...I agree for the most part. 

In prior match though he was just hanging on to Wicks hands and arching up to keep him from locking up.  Not sure if that's stalling, but it's not trying to get out from bottom either.

Either way the ownership lies with Wick.  Gonna have to wrestle smarter.  Needs to watch some Gross/Lizak/Schopp  film if he is going to keep the cross body ride.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, tbert said:

Actually...I agree for the most part. 

In prior match though he was just hanging on to Wicks hands and arching up to keep him from locking up.  Not sure if that's stalling, but it's not trying to get out from bottom either.

Either way the ownership lies with Wick.  Gonna have to wrestle smarter.  Needs to watch some Gross/Lizak/Schopp  film if he is going to keep the cross body ride.

To be clear, I'm not calling Marinelli some dynamo in that match.  I imagine wrestling Wick over and over again must get tougher, just because his style is so freaking tough, but Marinelli essentially shut it down in neutral after getting a TD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, AHamilton said:

Other than the part in the 2nd when he had Wick in a crackdown you mean?

You may have a point.  But please tell me when Wick actually started wrestling aggressively?  Trying anything other than riding parallel to get a cradle?  Maybe actually trying to turn Marinelli when he locked the cradle?  How about penetrating to a leg instead of trying to slap it?

He grabbed that leg, tucked his head and milked that for every millisecond it was worth.  LOL @ that being offensive wrestling!

I definitely have a point.  Wick wrestled aggressively for seven minutes.  Marinelli for three.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

He grabbed that leg, tucked his head and milked that for every millisecond it was worth.  LOL @ that being offensive wrestling!

I definitely have a point.  Wick wrestled aggressively for seven minutes.  Marinelli for three.

How many offensive points did "aggressive" wick score? How many shots?  How many times did he commit to a turn? How many times did he even fight hands when he reached his feet from bottom?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AHamilton said:

How many offensive points did "aggressive" wick score? How many shots?  How many times did he commit to a turn? How many times did he even fight hands when he reached his feet from bottom?

0.  Plenty, considering he had a guy in a Muy Thai clinch hanging on his head.  Lots of times. Every time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we should reexamine the way we view Wick's top wrestling. He cradles up lower tier guys, but against good wrestlers, his match strategy is to try not to get taken down then choose top. Once on top he throws his leg in and sits on the hips to accrue riding time and hope his coach is able to coax 2 stall calls out of the official. It is a stall ride. He did that same thing against Marinelli, White, and Massa. Brutal matches to watch because of it. All 3 guys worked hard on bottom, kept building a base while Bono whined in the corner for stall points because his guy can't score real points. While there were sections of the matches where Marinelli was defensive because that was the smart strategy at the end of the match, he has been by far the more aggressive wrestler over the course of the 3 matches. Marinelli has 5 takedowns, and 3-4 other deep leg attacks he didnt finish. Evan Wick has taken two committed leg attacks in 3 matches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

0.  Plenty, considering he had a guy in a Muy Thai clinch hanging on his head.  Lots of times. Every time.

Nice job moving the goal posts when you get proven wrong. Marinelli has been far and away the more aggressive guy in this match up. Wick tries to keep from getting taken down and win with stall calls on top and nothing more. He did the same thing against White and got away with it. Then he did the same thing against Massa and it bit him. That's 3 matches where he did not score an offensive point. All of those guys scored plenty of points in their other matches. Wick is the common denominator. If you want to watch a snooze fest, watch Evan Wick wrestle somebody with a pulse.

If he doesn't change at NCAAs it will bite him again. You can't expect to beat good guys when you only wrestle in one position and even in that position you're almost exclusively wrestling for stall calls, not to score actual points.

Edited by qc8223

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

Nice job moving the goal posts when you get proven wrong. Marinelli has been far and away the more aggressive guy in this match up. Wick tries to keep from getting taken down and win with stall calls on top and nothing more. He did the same thing against White and got away with it. Then he did the same thing against Massa and it bit him. That's 3 matches where he did not score an offensive point. All of those guys scored plenty of points in their other matches. Wick is the common denominator. If you want to watch a snooze fest, watch Evan Wick wrestle somebody with a pulse.

If he doesn't change at NCAAs it will bite him again. You can't expect to beat good guys when you only wrestle in one position and even in that position you're almost exclusively wrestling for stall calls, not to score actual points.

I will agree with you for the comments about how Wick has not scored offensive points. With Marinelli, however, I cannot. 

Being front and center of the match, I cannot recall ONE TIME where Marinelli attempted to kick his leg free of Wick, create space to escape or reverse.  Wick was attempting the cradle the whole time, true, but Marinelli kept bottoming out. I felt like Wick was getting hosed a bit, but I'm a Badger homer.

In my day, Bob Downing or Ted Harris or Spike Israel would have double dq'ed the men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BadgerMon said:

I will agree with you for the comments about how Wick has not scored offensive points. With Marinelli, however, I cannot. 

Being front and center of the match, I cannot recall ONE TIME where Marinelli attempted to kick his leg free of Wick, create space to escape or reverse.  Wick was attempting the cradle the whole time, true, but Marinelli kept bottoming out. I felt like Wick was getting hosed a bit, but I'm a Badger homer.

In my day, Bob Downing or Ted Harris or Spike Israel would have double dq'ed the men.

I think that is the key phrase. Marinelli spent the whole period clearing his leg and regaining his base. Once he regained his base, the leg came back in and the process started over. Marinelli literally caught his leg and came close to finishing a reversal right away in the period, so I don't know what you're talking about when you say he didn't attempt to escape or reverse. That's the same way he reversed him in Madison, just didn't finish this time.

Here is the 2 minute breakdown of the second period with Wick on top.

0:00-0:16 Marinelli seals off to prevent leg coming in, works his way to a tripod - definitely can't hit him for stalling here

0:17-0:57 Wick throws leg in as Marinelli stands, Marinelli catches leg, gets to a crackdown, Wick locks in the crotch and hangs on for a stalemate - can't hit him for stalling here.

0:58-1:19 Marinelli seals off whistle, makes his way back to a tripod, leg comes in, Wick locks cradle, Marinelli spends the next 10 seconds breaking the lock, Wick flattens him with the leg in as he breaks the lock - can't hit him here either as he is completing the necessary step to work towards escaping (breaking the cradle)

1:20 - 1:28 Within 5 seconds of being flattened with a leg in, Marinelli clears his leg, then comes back to his base - goes from being flattened with a leg in to his base in 10 seconds. That's pretty impressive bottom work. No stalling there.

1:29-1:38 Leg comes back in, Marinelli reaches back to try to catch it like he did the first time, doesn't get it, Wick flattens him out

1:39-1:47 Again within 5 seconds of being flattened, Marinelli successfully clears the leg and comes back to his base, Wick gets a crosswrist as he regains his base, Marinelli holds his base and fights the hand, Leg comes back in and flattens him

1:48-1:55 Marinelli clears the crosswrist, then the leg

1:55-2:00 Wick transitions to a tight waste, Marinelli lays on his belly for the final 5 seconds. This is the only point you could legitimately hit Marinelli for stalling at because it's the only point that he's not actively working to come to his feet or reverse Wick. However, to hit someone for laying on their belly for 5 seconds at the end of the period would be insane imo. 

Also for what it's worth, Evan Wick really only attempted to cradle 1 time during those 2 minutes. He locked it and made no attempt to turn from there, instead using it as a breakdown.

And while I have the video up I'll do a quick 3rd period breakdown too!

0:10 Marinelli hits a nice post single, scramble ensues, eventual stalemate at 0:40. 

0:41-0:55 Marinelli holds ground in the center, no backing up, Wick takes his first committed shot at 0:55 with no set up, doesn't touch a leg

1:01 half shot wick, Marinelli still holding ground in the center

1:09 another half shot Wick, stall on Marinelli for a point, this in retrospect is pretty quick considering that Wick has only taken 1 committed attack and Marinelli is holding the center. He would never get a warning after this sequence of events in the first period. Wick has an army of coaches/fans/family working the ref for stall points since the start of period 2.

1:15 another half shot (that's pretty generous, more like a level change, no penetration), we're at 1 committed attack for Wick, 3 half shots, Marinelli the only one who has gotten to a leg this period

1:22 half ankle pick attempt from Wick, didn't commit

1:39 another half shot from Wick, Marinelli still standing in the center, only stoppage this period is from the stalemate off Marinelli's attack

1:45 another half ankle pick attempt, maybe penetrated half a foot , Marinelli in the center

1:54 Wick finally takes his second committed attack, Marinelli downblocks and drops right in on his own reattack. Match ends with Marinelli on a low single. 

I think the stalling in this match was called almost perfectly. I think the warning on Marinelli in the 3rd was probably 20 seconds too early, but that didn't really matter. It's hard to complain about the stalling when you only take two committed attacks in the period (the second with 5 to go) when your opponent also took 2 committed attacks and actually got to the leg with them. After reviewing the video, it's pretty clear that Wick was wrestling for stalling calls in both the second and third. He took almost no risk to score offensive points in either period. He had no intention to score with his half shots in the third. He was only attempting to get another stall call to send it to OT. When he finally had to commit to an actual score, Marinelli easily dropped in on his own reattack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of my critique of Wick comes from a place of frustration because I do think he has some great skills and has the potential to be fun to watch, but right now he's brutal to watch. He is way too enamored with his ability to ride. Obviously, that is a really good skill to have and to be able to fall back on, but right now he's not a guy who wrestles to score points. He wrestles for stall calls and riding time (against guys on his level at least), even on top. He finally got a cradle locked against Marinelli last weekend. He made no attempt to score with it because doing so risked Marinelli escaping. Would love to see him open up and try to score next week.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

I think that is the key phrase. Marinelli spent the whole period clearing his leg and regaining his base. Once he regained his base, the leg came back in and the process started over. Marinelli literally caught his leg and came close to finishing a reversal right away in the period, so I don't know what you're talking about when you say he didn't attempt to escape or reverse. That's the same way he reversed him in Madison, just didn't finish this time.

Here is the 2 minute breakdown of the second period with Wick on top.

0:00-0:16 Marinelli seals off to prevent leg coming in, works his way to a tripod - definitely can't hit him for stalling here

0:17-0:57 Wick throws leg in as Marinelli stands, Marinelli catches leg, gets to a crackdown, Wick locks in the crotch and hangs on for a stalemate - can't hit him for stalling here.

0:58-1:19 Marinelli seals off whistle, makes his way back to a tripod, leg comes in, Wick locks cradle, Marinelli spends the next 10 seconds breaking the lock, Wick flattens him with the leg in as he breaks the lock - can't hit him here either as he is completing the necessary step to work towards escaping (breaking the cradle)

1:20 - 1:28 Within 5 seconds of being flattened with a leg in, Marinelli clears his leg, then comes back to his base - goes from being flattened with a leg in to his base in 10 seconds. That's pretty impressive bottom work. No stalling there.

1:29-1:38 Leg comes back in, Marinelli reaches back to try to catch it like he did the first time, doesn't get it, Wick flattens him out

1:39-1:47 Again within 5 seconds of being flattened, Marinelli successfully clears the leg and comes back to his base, Wick gets a crosswrist as he regains his base, Marinelli holds his base and fights the hand, Leg comes back in and flattens him

1:48-1:55 Marinelli clears the crosswrist, then the leg

1:55-2:00 Wick transitions to a tight waste, Marinelli lays on his belly for the final 5 seconds. This is the only point you could legitimately hit Marinelli for stalling at because it's the only point that he's not actively working to come to his feet or reverse Wick. However, to hit someone for laying on their belly for 5 seconds at the end of the period would be insane imo. 

Also for what it's worth, Evan Wick really only attempted to cradle 1 time during those 2 minutes. He locked it and made no attempt to turn from there, instead using it as a breakdown.

And while I have the video up I'll do a quick 3rd period breakdown too!

0:10 Marinelli hits a nice post single, scramble ensues, eventual stalemate at 0:40. 

0:41-0:55 Marinelli holds ground in the center, no backing up, Wick takes his first committed shot at 0:55 with no set up, doesn't touch a leg

1:01 half shot wick, Marinelli still holding ground in the center

1:09 another half shot Wick, stall on Marinelli for a point, this in retrospect is pretty quick considering that Wick has only taken 1 committed attack and Marinelli is holding the center. He would never get a warning after this sequence of events in the first period. Wick has an army of coaches/fans/family working the ref for stall points since the start of period 2.

1:15 another half shot (that's pretty generous, more like a level change, no penetration), we're at 1 committed attack for Wick, 3 half shots, Marinelli the only one who has gotten to a leg this period

1:22 half ankle pick attempt from Wick, didn't commit

1:39 another half shot from Wick, Marinelli still standing in the center, only stoppage this period is from the stalemate off Marinelli's attack

1:45 another half ankle pick attempt, maybe penetrated half a foot , Marinelli in the center

1:54 Wick finally takes his second committed attack, Marinelli downblocks and drops right in on his own reattack. Match ends with Marinelli on a low single. 

I think the stalling in this match was called almost perfectly. I think the warning on Marinelli in the 3rd was probably 20 seconds too early, but that didn't really matter. It's hard to complain about the stalling when you only take two committed attacks in the period (the second with 5 to go) when your opponent also took 2 committed attacks and actually got to the leg with them. After reviewing the video, it's pretty clear that Wick was wrestling for stalling calls in both the second and third. He took almost no risk to score offensive points in either period. He had no intention to score with his half shots in the third. He was only attempting to get another stall call to send it to OT. When he finally had to commit to an actual score, Marinelli easily dropped in on his own reattack.

Wow you got some free time!

Is it possible neither is stalling?  Is this a form of wrestling that works best for wick?  Maybe we don't love it but if it is what he has and it got him this far, and the refs allow/help it along, isn't that ok?  Do we have to love watching a guy for him to be good?  On this board it seems that anyone who is not doing exactly what "the people" want, is doing it wrong.

I'm not pointing this at qc8223, just in general.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, teach said:

Wow you got some free time!

Is it possible neither is stalling?  Is this a form of wrestling that works best for wick?  Maybe we don't love it but if it is what he has and it got him this far, and the refs allow/help it along, isn't that ok?  Do we have to love watching a guy for him to be good?  On this board it seems that anyone who is not doing exactly what "the people" want, is doing it wrong.

I'm not pointing this at qc8223, just in general.

 

I do have some free time haha. I work at a university and the kids are on spring break, so I have nothing to do.

I definitely wouldn't hit Wick for stalling on top either. That whole period was 1 long string of continuous action by both guys. Wick breaking Marinelli down, Marinelli rebuilding his base. If you continue to break a guy down flat for a whole period, I'm not going to call that stalling. When I call it a stall ride, I'm mostly drawing attention to the fact that he really wasn't making a legit attempt to turn Marinelli unlike what some others were saying.

And I definitely think Wick is a great wrestler, and if he can win 2-1 matches all the way to a title, all the power to him. I don't think that's a sustainable way to wrestle against top competition though. Losing to Massa, who he has previously owned, kind of shows that. You just leave yourself open to too many things going wrong when you try to win every match the same way, and that way involves the official getting involved on your behalf. 

My only gripe is that there seems to be a consensus on the boards that Marinelli beats him by stalling, and that simply isn't true. Marinelli has completely outwrestled him all 3 times and been way more aggressive. That could change next week obviously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, BadgerMon said:

I will agree with you for the comments about how Wick has not scored offensive points. With Marinelli, however, I cannot. 

Being front and center of the match, I cannot recall ONE TIME where Marinelli attempted to kick his leg free of Wick, create space to escape or reverse.  Wick was attempting the cradle the whole time, true, but Marinelli kept bottoming out. I felt like Wick was getting hosed a bit, but I'm a Badger homer.

In my day, Bob Downing or Ted Harris or Spike Israel would have double dq'ed the men.

Downing tended to be a bit unreasonable with many of his stalling calls.  

In one match I was coaching, my wrestler was trying to free his hand from his opponent's grip.  His opponent was on both knees and locked on to my wrestler's wrist with both hands.  My wrestler posted his hand on his opponent's head and repeatedly tried to rip his other hand free while his opponent held on and didn't make any attempt to get up.  We got hit for stalling of course. 

If somebody told me that Downing had dq'ed Askren for stalling in a match it wouldn't surprise me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×