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"You're killing the sport of wrestling"

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4 hours ago, qc8223 said:

I do have some free time haha. I work at a university and the kids are on spring break, so I have nothing to do.

I definitely wouldn't hit Wick for stalling on top either. That whole period was 1 long string of continuous action by both guys. Wick breaking Marinelli down, Marinelli rebuilding his base. If you continue to break a guy down flat for a whole period, I'm not going to call that stalling. When I call it a stall ride, I'm mostly drawing attention to the fact that he really wasn't making a legit attempt to turn Marinelli unlike what some others were saying.

And I definitely think Wick is a great wrestler, and if he can win 2-1 matches all the way to a title, all the power to him. I don't think that's a sustainable way to wrestle against top competition though. Losing to Massa, who he has previously owned, kind of shows that. You just leave yourself open to too many things going wrong when you try to win every match the same way, and that way involves the official getting involved on your behalf. 

My only gripe is that there seems to be a consensus on the boards that Marinelli beats him by stalling, and that simply isn't true. Marinelli has completely outwrestled him all 3 times and been way more aggressive. That could change next week obviously.

 

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4 hours ago, qc8223 said:

I do have some free time haha. I work at a university and the kids are on spring break, so I have nothing to do.

I definitely wouldn't hit Wick for stalling on top either. That whole period was 1 long string of continuous action by both guys. Wick breaking Marinelli down, Marinelli rebuilding his base. If you continue to break a guy down flat for a whole period, I'm not going to call that stalling. When I call it a stall ride, I'm mostly drawing attention to the fact that he really wasn't making a legit attempt to turn Marinelli unlike what some others were saying.

And I definitely think Wick is a great wrestler, and if he can win 2-1 matches all the way to a title, all the power to him. I don't think that's a sustainable way to wrestle against top competition though. Losing to Massa, who he has previously owned, kind of shows that. You just leave yourself open to too many things going wrong when you try to win every match the same way, and that way involves the official getting involved on your behalf. 

My only gripe is that there seems to be a consensus on the boards that Marinelli beats him by stalling, and that simply isn't true. Marinelli has completely outwrestled him all 3 times and been way more aggressive. That could change next week 

I found this a really helpful way to look at a complicated situation.  Also the earlier point that Wick has a lot of these matches helps out this in perspective. In addition to that, except for Wick, do you ever watch Marinelli and think he is a habitual staller? Doubt it; there's a reason everyone calls him The Bull.

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Wick is continuously looking to turn dudes.  It is hard to turn an elite guy.  That is why his matches turn out 2-1.  Marinelli was purely killing time on bottom.  If you don't think that is stalling, more power to you.  For the vast majority of the 3rd, he was blocking out and backing up.   Again, not stalling?  Agree to disagree.

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10 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Wick is continuously looking to turn dudes.  It is hard to turn an elite guy.  That is why his matches turn out 2-1.  Marinelli was purely killing time on bottom.  If you don't think that is stalling, more power to you.  For the vast majority of the 3rd, he was blocking out and backing up.   Again, not stalling?  Agree to disagree.

Definitely and respectfully agree to disagree.  At Midlands I thought Marinelli was stalling but the more I've seen them since, I've started to see it as more of a style issue.  And I thought that qc8823's breakdown was helpful.  Marinelli is making effort to get to his base and clear the leg. He just is being careful not to push his leg up to the cradle. Maybe someone who is more of a rules expert can say if that's textbook stalling.  I thought the third period was called correctly.  Marinelli had the lead, and was more cautious. Wick didn't do a heck of a lot.  Marinelli did get called and I agree with the analysis above that it was a reasonable but pretty quick stall call for that match situation. And I do think that it's relevant that Marinelli is a guy who has demonstrated a gas tank and a willingness to wrestle against all the other top guys.  

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14 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

Wick is continuously looking to turn dudes.  It is hard to turn an elite guy.  That is why his matches turn out 2-1.  Marinelli was purely killing time on bottom.  If you don't think that is stalling, more power to you.  For the vast majority of the 3rd, he was blocking out and backing up.   Again, not stalling?  Agree to disagree.

I did a second by second breakdown of the second and third period showing that this was not the case. Marinelli stood in the center the whole 3rd period, and got to Wick's legs twice (compared to 0 for Wick). Wick only took 2 committed attacks. That's not enough to warrant 2 stall calls.

Obviously, it's hard to turn elite guys which is why I think he tries to work for stall calls against them instead. But Marinelli definitely wasn't just "killing time" on bottom. He was working really hard down there. That's why he looked tired in the third, which he never is. As my breakdown showed, there was only 5 seconds (the last five seconds) where Marinelli was not working to improve his position by either getting to a tripod, breaking the lock on the cradle, or clearing the leg then getting back to his base. Getting ridden out does not equal stalling on bottom. Sometimes you get ridden out because your opponent is a monster on top, not because you're not working hard to get away.

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