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1 minute ago, custom fitch said:

Agree, I don't get into the tit for tat that goes on so much here, just a waste of time. Honest question, have there been significant injuries due to hands to the face? I don't remember any but there may very well have.

John Trenge almost went blind.

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2 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

It's always been a rule. It's just been a point of emphasis this year.

Well, sure it has always been a rule but was the rule always written as, "touch your opponent's face once and lose a point"? What is the exact wording of the rule, and did it change at all this year or are refs just now calling this exactly, precisely as it is written? Like russelscout said, I didn't know it was such a big problem that it required this degree of enforcement.

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1 minute ago, custom fitch said:

Well, sure it has always been a rule but was the rule always written as, "touch your opponent's face once and lose a point"? What is the exact wording of the rule, and did it change at all this year or are refs just now calling this exactly, precisely as it is written? Like russelscout said, I didn't know it was such a big problem that it required this degree of enforcement.

Yes. Some refs called it, most didn't. The rules committee made it a point of emphasis this year, so now all refs are calling it.

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4 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

Really?

 

LeeRivera1.jpg

LeeRivera2.jpg

No doubt, hands to the face. But anyone can produce a freeze frame with Rivera doing it to Lee, or Lee on Rivera, or Suriano on DeSanto, or any one of the matches that occurred this weekend. Used to be a routine, regular part of wrestling.

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1 minute ago, custom fitch said:

No doubt, hands to the face. But anyone can produce a freeze frame with Rivera doing it to Lee, or Lee on Rivera, or Suriano on DeSanto, or any one of the matches that occurred this weekend. Used to be a routine, regular part of wrestling.

The sport is evolving. Rubber suits and unregulated  weight cutting by massive dehydration used to also be a routine regular part of wrestling.

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8 minutes ago, custom fitch said:

Then again, why wait 15-20 years though? This rule came out of nowhere and it does not appear that it was vetted very well. 

Quote from Jon Trenge:

The officials did a pretty poor job of making me feel like they were going to help me keep people out of my face.  I would warn officials once... "he's in my face, grabbing my goggles."  usually they would tell me that they don't see anything wrong.  Then I would tell them again.  From there on, my defenses would go up, and up, and up... until I felt like I was in a corner left to defend myself.  There were only a few officials who did a good job of keeping the opponents hands and fingers out of my eyes.

Ref's jobs are tough. I believe they sincerely want to protect the wrestlers, but they've got a lot of action going on at a very rapid pace. As anyone knows who followed Jon, it got ugly more than once.

Trenge was injured in 2001. Since then I've seen wrestlers purposely poke at the eyes. It's reprehensible that its used as a tactic - but it is, without a doubt, used by at least some.

At the end of the day, I would think the wrestlers safety is priority one. So, if we give the ref the sole authority to make the call and make it unchallengeable, and also leaved it to the ref to decide if it is 'flagrant' or not, and award the point to make it 'real'. That seems to me to be a good place to start for the coming year. 

We can always revise and make it better.

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1 minute ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Quote from Jon Trenge:

The officials did a pretty poor job of making me feel like they were going to help me keep people out of my face.  I would warn officials once... "he's in my face, grabbing my goggles."  usually they would tell me that they don't see anything wrong.  Then I would tell them again.  From there on, my defenses would go up, and up, and up... until I felt like I was in a corner left to defend myself.  There were only a few officials who did a good job of keeping the opponents hands and fingers out of my eyes.

Ref's jobs are tough. I believe they sincerely want to protect the wrestlers, but they've got a lot of action going on at a very rapid pace. As anyone knows who followed Jon, it got ugly more than once.

Trenge was injured in 2001. Since then I've seen wrestlers purposely poke at the eyes. It's reprehensible that its used as a tactic - but it is, without a doubt, used by at least some.

At the end of the day, I would think the wrestlers safety is priority one. So, if we give the ref the sole authority to make the call and make it unchallengeable, and also leaved it to the ref to decide if it is 'flagrant' or not, and award the point to make it 'real'. That seems to me to be a good place to start for the coming year. 

We can always revise and make it better.

Well said. Nobody wants injuries to happen due to flagrant action, and nobody wants important matches to be decided by calls like we saw today. At least I don't. 

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8 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

The sport is evolving. Rubber suits and unregulated  weight cutting by massive dehydration used to also be a routine regular part of wrestling.

No doubt, evolution is the way of everything and I'd say the sport has evolved in the right direction overall. But again, as a neutral observer, the way that match ended doesn't sit well with me and we are going to have to agree to disagree because that won't change. 

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Tough call. Is a headgear pull, locked hands, hands to face, etc. really all that egregious? Not always but you have to have technical rules and you have to call them close. There is no warning for a headgear grab or locked hands and I look at this the same way.

As a hockey guy first, I always hate when referees don't call penalties in the 3rd period or OT because they don't want to "effect the outcome of the game" but by not calling those things you absolutely change the game and possibly the results.

Sucks to lose on a technical violation but you have to have them called.

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2 minutes ago, custom fitch said:

No doubt, evolution is the way of everything and I'd say the sport has evolved in the right direction overall. But again, as a neutral observer, the way that match ended doesn't sit well with me and we are going to have to agree to disagree because that won't change. 

The fact that Rivera scored a TD towards the end of regulation, then countered off of Lees shot to score the td in OT is why I'm ok with the way the match ended. I have a bigger problem with matches that are decided by bogus subject stalling calls.

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It wasn't the call that decided the match, it was the takedown in OT.

The TD in SV would not have been possible without the hands to face call in the final 25 seconds of regulation.

 

I believe the intent of emphasizing the rule was to get rid of the boxing “jabs” for which Retherford became infamous. Lee’s clearing out as part of head-hands defense (imho) hardly falls into that category.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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33 minutes ago, lu_alum said:

The TD in SV would not have been possible without the hands to face call in the final 25 seconds of regulation.

 

I believe the intent of emphasizing the rule was to get rid of the boxing “jabs” for which Retherford became infamous. Lee’s clearing out as part of head-hands defense (imho) hardly falls into that category.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Imo the takedown in regulation doesn’t happen without the hands to face call and restart. Rivera won fair and square with the rule in place. I have a feeling at least a few of these posters would feel quite differently if it happened the other way around or if it was one of their guys involved in the match.

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3 minutes ago, Mpchillin said:

Imo the takedown in regulation doesn’t happen without the hands to face call and restart. Rivera won fair and square with the rule in place. I have a feeling at least a few of these posters would feel quite differently if it happened the other way around or if it was one of their guys involved in the match.

I believe you feel this way because it happened to one of your guys.

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Just now, BigTenFanboy said:

I believe you feel this way because it happened to one of your guys.

You’re one of those posters. I would feel the same way had this happened to any Penn State, Ohio State wrestler or if it were to happen the other way around. You, on the other hand have an actual unhealthy bias against Iowa and have admitted it on a routine basis so your opinion is invalid here.

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4 minutes ago, Mpchillin said:

You’re one of those posters. I would feel the same way had this happened to any Penn State, Ohio State wrestler or if it were to happen the other way around. You, on the other hand have an actual unhealthy bias against Iowa and have admitted it on a routine basis so your opinion is invalid here.

I dont have an unhealthy bias against Iowa. I have a healthy bias against Tom Brands. Big difference. Love Jim Zalesky. Love Dan Gable. Even like Terry.

 

Furthermore Rivera took Lee down twice. Hes very capable of taking Lee down. To say he couldnt do it if not for the Lee's hand to the face which was legit is disrespectful to Rivera.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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