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boconnell

Forfeiting Conference Final

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Micic forfeits out of the semis.  Rasheed forfeits out of the finals.  Both are seeded #2.  

Steveson wrestles and loses to the #3 guy in the country and ends up seeded 3rd.  I think it's safe to assume wrestling the match hurt him and if he forfeits he is probably the #1 seed.  

It makes no sense to me how willing the committee is to ignore forfeits in the 2nd most important tournaments of the year.  The way they treated those who forfeited all but guarantees even more guys will do it next year.  

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I agree.

If a wrestler is too 'banged up' to wrestle the conference finals - it should be safe to assume they would have lost that final for seeding purposes.

If they can essentially not 'lose' that final match from a seeding perspective without having to wrestle it, then why wrestle?

 

 

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If you’re ranked higher or already beat someone earlier in the year, there’s absolutely no reason not to FFT at conference tournaments once your spot is locked up.

 

I know it sucks for the sport, but coaches are there for their own athletes first

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6 minutes ago, simple said:

If you’re ranked higher or already beat someone earlier in the year, there’s absolutely no reason not to FFT at conference tournaments once your spot is locked up.

 

I know it sucks for the sport, but coaches are there for their own athletes first

Yep.  Coaches' rankings account for past years, so all you need to do is wrestle guys you can beat and forfeit every match you might lose, including your conference tournament.  

I don't blame coaches at all.  Like you said they are looking out for their own.

I don't blame athletes who take marching orders from coaches. 

I blame whoever is creating and applying criteria that incentivizes skipping matches. 

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I don’t think I’d pick White but I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he wins it.  He beat Cassar and his match with Gable was really just decided by one move where he got taken down to his back.

But I think the Cassar/Rasheed situation is interesting with them both being from PSU.  Certainly isn’t encouraging Cael in particular to wrestle his guys in the final.  

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2 hours ago, boconnell said:

Micic forfeits out of the semis.  Rasheed forfeits out of the finals.  Both are seeded #2.  

Steveson wrestles and loses to the #3 guy in the country and ends up seeded 3rd.  I think it's safe to assume wrestling the match hurt him and if he forfeits he is probably the #1 seed.  

It makes no sense to me how willing the committee is to ignore forfeits in the 2nd most important tournaments of the year.  The way they treated those who forfeited all but guarantees even more guys will do it next year.  

This is a good post.

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I have a solid solution.  A wrestler may never be seeded higher than someone that finished higher than him in his conference tournament.  No matter the reason nor their records.  Period.  It’s all about tournament time.  High school kids don’t have this luxury. Neither should college kids.  

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These are qualifiers.  They qualified.  I don't know why more athletes don't drop out of an event once they qualify.  I know people will make the claim that winning a conference is a big deal and that it puts you in the record books for the conference and your school.  But if you believe that to be true, there is no reason not to drop out of an event once in the consi and you've qualified.

Wrestling deviates from every other sport in qualification.  There should be no conference allocations.  Every conference should get one bid--the champion--and all of the remaining slots are determined by at-large selection.  This creates an incentive to have a good performance at the qualifier. 

There is simply no reason to wrestle additional matches once you've qualified for nationals. 

And I don't believe the committee should be considering matches not wrestled.  The fact someone defaulted out is immaterial.

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4 minutes ago, TheOhioState said:

Forfeiting out of a conference final should count against the wrestler as if he lost by pin fall.

It should also be assumed that they would have been down by 14 at the time of the fall. 

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13 minutes ago, Pinnum said:

These are qualifiers.  They qualified.  I don't know why more athletes don't drop out of an event once they qualify.  I know people will make the claim that winning a conference is a big deal and that it puts you in the record books for the conference and your school.  But if you believe that to be true, there is no reason not to drop out of an event once in the consi and you've qualified.

Wrestling deviates from every other sport in qualification.  There should be no conference allocations.  Every conference should get one bid--the champion--and all of the remaining slots are determined by at-large selection.  This creates an incentive to have a good performance at the qualifier. 

There is simply no reason to wrestle additional matches once you've qualified for nationals. 

And I don't believe the committee should be considering matches not wrestled.  The fact someone defaulted out is immaterial.

 

I know that one Flo guy who doesn't know wrestling but went to Big 10's tweeted about imagining Duke forfeiting to UNC in basketball.   I agree about the forfeiting aspect is unheard of in other sports, but I'm pretty sure it's not at all uncommon for teams in the bball tournament to lose in their conference tournament and still receive one of the 4 #1 seeds. 

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3 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I know that one Flo guy who doesn't know wrestling but went to Big 10's tweeted about imagining Duke forfeiting to UNC in basketball.   I agree about the forfeiting aspect is unheard of in other sports, but I'm pretty sure it's not at all uncommon for teams in the bball tournament to lose in their conference tournament and still receive one of the 4 #1 seeds. 

Basketball, like all other sports, only gives a bid to the conference champion.  Everyone else is added as an at-large.

Losing and then getting a #1 seed does happen in basketball.  But there are four tournaments so being a #1 seed is really only being top-4 and depending on the season and the results that happened that year, it is reasonable that a team that loses actually has the better resume.  Seeds are not about projecting who will win, it is simply offsetting competitors based on their resumes.

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1 minute ago, Pinnum said:

Basketball, like all other sports, only gives a bid to the conference champion.  Everyone else is added as an at-large.

Losing and then getting a #1 seed does happen in basketball.  But there are four tournaments so being a #1 seed is really only being top-4 and depending on the season and the results that happened that year, it is reasonable that a team that loses actually has the better resume.  Seeds are not about projecting who will win, it is simply offsetting competitors based on their resumes.

Fair enough.  Yeah I think the one simple thing that will improve the situation the most is counting MFF's as losses.    I think that changes MIcic's seed, but maybe not Rasheed's.

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22 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Fair enough.  Yeah I think the one simple thing that will improve the situation the most is counting MFF's as losses.    I think that changes MIcic's seed, but maybe not Rasheed's.

There are other better structural changes that can be made to get he same end result without penalizing athletes for a medical fft.

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15 minutes ago, Pinnum said:

There are other better structural changes that can be made to get he same end result without penalizing athletes for a medical fft.

Like what (honest question)?  I guess if they're sticking with roughly the same criteria they could at least make the Conf placement worth a higher %.

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3 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Like what (honest question)?  I guess if they're sticking with roughly the same criteria they could at least make the Conf placement worth a higher %.

I for one would like to see media play a part in the seeding. Flo, intermat, etc. aren't always right, but their ranking services study this week by week and are much more likely to have helpful input for each bracket than a coach. 

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Like what (honest question)?  I guess if they're sticking with roughly the same criteria they could at least make the Conf placement worth a higher %.

The issue is that the incentives are not in alignment.

Individual matches happen for the sole benefit of the individual.  Event results don't matter.  You want to win a national team title or get a team trophy?  Get as many guys through to nationals as possible and work to give them the highest seeding possible.  It doesn't matter what happens in the events that are wrestled in the season.  Always look out for the individual. That is the problem.  The incentives are off.

 

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