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Zebra

Senator Birch Bayh Title IX author died today at 91

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1 minute ago, Zebra said:

I did not know that was prerequisite. I suppose the whole "punish innocent people who didn't have anything to do with it" thing is already used up. 

I just don't think it was an option for mens athletics maintain everything it had and appease title IX at the same time. I don't know how you can have your cake and eat it too. You either purge football or ignore the law. One of the two, because Lord knows Americans don't want to pay more taxes to make it happen.

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1 hour ago, qc8223 said:

That's an insane leap based on a misunderstanding of discrimination. Discrimination based on talent is perfectly acceptable under Title IX for competitive sports. Title IX is simply meant to make sure that there are a fair amount of opportunity for both genders to compete if they want to.

Was there only a women's gymnastics team? If so, your friend was potentially discriminated against based on gender. Guess what law gives him legal recourse to address that...Title IX. Title IX does not just protect women. It protects all genders from discrimination. Now, because women started off so behind when the law was passed, most of its applications have been to protect opportunities for women. But as women increasingly close the gap, you will start to see a higher percentage of cases involving discrimination of men.

Did Title IX have an impact on college wrestling? Definitely. It gave administrations an easy way to cut a bunch of money pit sports and funnel the money to their bigger programs. That's an unfortunate loophole in the law. However, Title IX has done great things for college sports, opening up way more opportunities for women, and that has an amazing effect on society at large. It also is an important factor in protecting people from discrimination in non-athletic areas. If you're going to be mad at someone, you should be mad at the direction of U.S. universities in general. They are increasingly run like businesses which leads to bad incentives that miss the point of having higher education in the first place. You should also be critical of state governments cutting funding to public universities. That has a major effect because the universities become over-reliant on tuition for funding and therefore prioritize ventures with the potential to draw students like luxury dorm renovations and student amenities and huge football and basketball budgets instead of paying good wages to professors and staff.

dis·crim·i·nate
/dəˈskriməˌnāt/
verb
verb: discriminate; 3rd person present: discriminates; past tense: discriminated; past participle: discriminated; gerund or present participle: discriminating
  1. 1.
    recognize a distinction; differentiate.
    "babies can discriminate between different facial expressions of emotion"
    synonyms: differentiate, distinguish, draw/recognize a distinction, tell the difference, discern a difference; 
    separate, tell apart; 
    separate the sheep from the goats, separate the wheat from the chaff
    "at birth, a baby cannot discriminate between foreground and background in its visual field"
    • perceive or constitute the difference in or between.
      "features that discriminate this species from other gastropods"

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1 hour ago, Zebra said:

15 teams. Man that is pathetic. Why even bother at that point.  

From and article I found,
 
"Since Title IX has been implemented into college athletics, 212 men’s gymnastics teams have been dropped since 1969 and only 18 NCAA programs remain. Men’s programs are being cut to allow the school to have an equal number of men’s and women’s sports. These programs are not being dropped based on interest or demand. Men's sports teams have been sacrificed in order to achieve "proportionality" as demanded by those enforcing Title IX."
 
If Title IX was drafted to improve the opportunity for females it has worked but it has also allowed other sports to be cannibalized.

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There's nothing stopping folkstyle wrestlers and fans from starting private clubs and tournaments. On the minus side, you won't be subsidized by taxpayers and students. But on the plus side, Title 9 would have zero influence. So why not go private?

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I don't know about the rest of the country but boys gymnastics is dead in Pa. It went from a fully sanctioned PIAA sport, with over 100 teams, to an unsanctioned sport with less than 100 teams to no HS teams recognized (maybe a few guys at prep schools and in clubs)

In 1975 the evening after PSU and Lehigh wrestled to 16-16 tie before 8,000, Their Gymnastics teams played Indiana State (with Kurt Thomas) before another 8,000. I don't know for sure, but I wonder if PSU gets 2000 for a 2 sex dual. ISU dropped both Gymn teams about the same time they dropped wrestling.  

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2 hours ago, JeanGuy said:
From and article I found,
 
"Since Title IX has been implemented into college athletics, 212 men’s gymnastics teams have been dropped since 1969 and only 18 NCAA programs remain. Men’s programs are being cut to allow the school to have an equal number of men’s and women’s sports. These programs are not being dropped based on interest or demand. Men's sports teams have been sacrificed in order to achieve "proportionality" as demanded by those enforcing Title IX."
 
If Title IX was drafted to improve the opportunity for females it has worked but it has also allowed other sports to be cannibalized.

Of course this is true. Men have and continue to pay the price bigtime.

It hilarious how all these long-timers go against the grain of their own soul, then "like" one another just to go with the flow. Probably the most disingenuous thread thus far. 

Edited by Marcus Cisero

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My parents graduated HS circa 1935, from a tiny school, about 40 graduates each year. There were 5 sports for boys Fball, Bktball, BaseBall, Track, and Tennis. There were 4 sports for girls,  Bktball, Sball, Track Tennis.  (This was before either wrestling or Field Hockey In the early 1950s their school combined with another, slightly smaller, to create my HS. I graduated 1967 in a class of 150. There were 6 sports, Fball, Bktball, Baseball, Cross country, Wrestling, Track. There was one sport for girls, Basketball. At bigger schools, Boys might have had Soccer, Tennis, Golf, Swimming.. Bigger schools girls might have added, Field Hockey or Softball. maybe a couple tennis teams. Exactly one girls Track team(and it was just a 4 by 110yds relay) I will bet 15% of the Public schools had no girls interscholastic sports.

What the heck happened. Pretty sure it was WW2. Women went to the factory while men went to the battlefield. When the war was over traditionalist, conservative social engineers wanted women back in the home, raising children. I think part of that was oblittering girls and womens sports. During that time Pa went from like 1300 HSs (excluding Philadelphia) to less than 550. I am guessing consolidation was the perfect time to drop girls sports when logically it should have been the opposite.

Of course now there is no potential T9 problem in Eastern Pa, because Field Hockey is very big. Typically a small school were FH is very important, has as many girls playing Field hockey as football

Edited by RichB

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50 minutes ago, Marcus Cisero said:

Of course this is true. Men have and continue to pay the price bigtime.

It hilarious how all these long-timers go against the grain of their own soul, then "like" one another just to go with the flow. Probably the most disingenuous thread thus far. 

The only college athletes who pay a price are the super athletes in football and men’s basketball. They generate millions of dollars but receive comparatively little in return.

Every other college athlete wins big time. They benefit from a policy of forcing taxpayers and students to subsidize their personal athletic pursuits.

Enough with the victim mentality. 

Edited by Katie

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10 hours ago, Zebra said:

Not sure but there are more than 100 DIII teams. I think there are more DIII than DI and DII combined. Someone out there surely has the tota. When you factor in NAIA, which is a whole different animal, then DIII / NAIA dwarfs the other tow divisions. 

It looks like there are 139 D1/D2, 172 D3/NAIA and 60 JC, 22 CA CC teams, along with 49 NCWA clubs.  Source - Trackwrestling.

Seems like quite a few opportunities still out there.

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7 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

It looks like there are 139 D1/D2, 172 D3/NAIA and 60 JC, 22 CA CC teams, along with 49 NCWA clubs.  Source - Trackwrestling.

Seems like quite a few opportunities still out there.

That’s 442 teams. Let’s give them the benefit of the doubt and go on average two deep. That’s 8840 spots. In 2018 over 245,000 boys participated in high school wrestling.  16,500 girls wrestled in high school. I’d be interested to see how many women’s spots there are in college and what the ratio comparison is. 

Edit: 40 teams. Doing the same two deep average is 800 spots. So basically 1 spot for every 20 women, 1 for every 28 men. Good to see because I think growth in the women’s game is the key to get the numbers back up in colleges. 

Edited by Lurker

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7 hours ago, Plasmodium said:

It looks like there are 139 D1/D2, 172 D3/NAIA and 60 JC, 22 CA CC teams, along with 49 NCWA clubs.  Source - Trackwrestling.

Seems like quite a few opportunities still out there.

Thank you kind sir. 

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

That’s 442 teams. Let’s give them the benefit of the doubt and go on average two deep. That’s 8840 spots. In 2018 over 245,000 boys participated in high school wrestling.  16,500 girls wrestled in high school. I’d be interested to see how many women’s spots there are in college and what the ratio comparison is. 

Edit: 40 teams. Doing the same two deep average is 800 spots. So basically 1 spot for every 20 women, 1 for every 28 men. Good to see because I think growth in the women’s game is the key to get the numbers back up in colleges. 

IIRC: Wrestling has the lowest college scholarship to HS participation ratio of all NCAA sports.  Softball has the highest.

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11 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

IIRC: Wrestling has the lowest college scholarship to HS participation ratio of all NCAA sports.  Softball has the highest.

Yeah I was just going by number of spots. Scholarships would be a whole different ballgame. 

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On 3/14/2019 at 2:38 PM, Marcus Cisero said:

My thoughts and condolences are with all the young men who lost the opportunity to wrestle due to this unfair rule.

The rule is not unfair, it is applied by too many to cut rather than add opportunity.

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15 hours ago, Katie said:

The only college athletes who pay a price are the super athletes in football and men’s basketball. They generate millions of dollars but receive comparatively little in return.

Every other college athlete wins big time. They benefit from a policy of forcing taxpayers and students to subsidize their personal athletic pursuits.

Enough with the victim mentality. 

Very few college programs even pay for themselves, much less "show a profit".

Have seen figures of "95% are money losers" - when it comes to actual dollars for sports programs.

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