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How to stop medical forfeits?

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

It is obviously a problem. There is no easy solution. On the one hand, an injured sthlete’s well-being should be the highest priority. Counting medical forfeits as losses incentivizes injured athletes to compete while injured and risk further or even catastrophic injury. On the other hand, it is easy to abuse the current system since a very mildly injured, or worse, an uninjured wrestler (or his coach) can easily forfeit with impunity. 

Like the OP, I hate how this is being abused but don’t have a good solution. 

People bring this up all the time but everybody ignores that every year you have people at NCAAs competing on torn ACLs, badly sprained ankles, etc... our main tournament of the year 100% incentivizes guys to go out and compete while injured if they think they have the tiniest chance at winning the match. At conference tournaments the only penalty for turning a forfeit in to a loss is that it might lower your seed. Nobody is going to force an injured wrestler out in a match where they might get hurt worse just to avoid dropping a few spots in seeding two weeks later. But it will prevent healthy wrestlers from MFFing out as soon as they have secured a qualification. 

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2 minutes ago, Holtfan said:

If they start counting forfeits at duals as 7 or 8 points, the coach is just going to run a warm body out there to save 1-2 team points at worst.  But it does give the opponent a win as opposed to a forfeit. 

Of course, this was when we still had a National Duals of some sort, and assumed that coaches actually cared about winning duals.  Since duals don't matter anymore, I think moving to the team qualifier concept and injured reserve list I outlined above might be the only type of solution to ducking/seeding issues.

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2 minutes ago, ThatLogSchuteWasCarrying said:

People bring this up all the time but everybody ignores that every year you have people at NCAAs competing on torn ACLs, badly sprained ankles, etc... our main tournament of the year 100% incentivizes guys to go out and compete while injured if they think they have the tiniest chance at winning the match. At conference tournaments the only penalty for turning a forfeit in to a loss is that it might lower your seed. Nobody is going to force an injured wrestler out in a match where they might get hurt worse just to avoid dropping a few spots in seeding two weeks later. But it will prevent healthy wrestlers from MFFing out as soon as they have secured a qualification. 

It’s not the same thing. An athlete may not know what his injury even is and the extent of it when making a decision to continue. People competing with known and well-diagnoses injuries who have obtained medical clearance are not in the same situation. 

Look, I HATE when coaches pull a guy to protect a seed. While it’s impossible to tell who is playing the system and who is protecting their athlete, f*ckery does happen and it’s obvious. All I’m saying is the guys who bring up the potentially dangerous incentive to compete have a valid point 

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What if a wrestler losses 1 seed spot/MFF regardless of MFF reason.  So seed as if no MFF happened and then all MFF drop down and adjust the bracket accordingly.  So no loss but they all lose positioning.  I suppose this could be gamed as well but it may help some.  

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1 minute ago, wrestlingnerd said:

It’s not the same thing. An athlete may not know what his injury even is and the extent of it when making a decision to continue. People competing with known and well-diagnoses injuries who have obtained medical clearance are not in the same situation. 

Look, I HATE when coaches pull a guy to protect a seed. While it’s impossible to tell who is playing the system and who is protecting their athlete, f*ckery does happen and it’s obvious. All I’m saying is the guys who bring up the potentially dangerous incentive to compete have a valid point 

I just think this fear is not based on anything. As a coach, you wouldn't send a guy out there who is seriously injured just to save a seed and risk the rest of the season all together. As important as a seed may be, coaches are not going to avoid caution all together.

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Just now, TobusRex said:

Medical forfeits should result in automatic scheduling of a hospital visit/physical. Clearance should be required from the doctor before the athlete should be allowed to participate again.

This is a non-barrier.  Team doctors would gladly endorse the wishes of the coaches in ducking scenarios.  Heck, the Mizzou doctor (a super great guy) sits in the corner for some matches.  We're not talking about the doctor endangering legitimately injured athletes, quite the opposite.  They would of course clear them to wrestle the next day if that's what the coach wanted, since they weren't legit injured to begin with.

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3 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

Medical forfeits should result in automatic scheduling of a hospital visit/physical. Clearance should be required from the doctor before the athlete should be allowed to participate again.

I like the idea of doctors approval, but that doesnt really solve the problem.  

 

Healthy wrestlers MFF's -- Doctors says they are good to go.  -- Team is only out a small doctor bill.

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1 minute ago, tigerfan said:

This is a non-barrier.  Team doctors would gladly endorse the wishes of the coaches in ducking scenarios.  Heck, the Mizzou doctor (a super great guy) sits in the corner for some matches.  We're not talking about the doctor endangering legitimately injured athletes, quite the opposite.  They would of course clear them to wrestle the next day if that's what the coach wanted, since they weren't legit injured to begin with.

In that case mandate it can't be a team doctor that evaluates the wrestler. In any case, even if cleared, there should be a mandatory waiting period of "x" amount of time.

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4 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I just think this fear is not based on anything. As a coach, you wouldn't send a guy out there who is seriously injured just to save a seed and risk the rest of the season all together. As important as a seed may be, coaches are not going to avoid caution all together.

Yeah, I've come around to this thinking as well. I think the "guys who are actually hurt will try to wrestle" thing is an overblown concern. If somebody is legitimately hurt then they'll take the seeding hit.We already have conference finish as 10% of the criteria so are penalizing guys who MFF out, just not very much. All this does is make the impact larger. 

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1 minute ago, TobusRex said:

In that case mandate it can't be a team doctor that evaluates the wrestler. In any case, even if cleared, there should be a mandatory waiting period of "x" amount of time.

Never happen.  Why would any university agree to pay a doctor when one already virtually volunteers their services?  Plus, taking the decision out of the hands of the medical pro and his patient is counter to the trend in our whole society.  Everyone hates bureaucracy in medicine.

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7 minutes ago, tigerfan said:

Never happen.  Why would any university agree to pay a doctor when one already virtually volunteers their services?  Plus, taking the decision out of the hands of the medical pro and his patient is counter to the trend in our whole society.  Everyone hates bureaucracy in medicine.

Then keep it like it is. Obviously universities are  at legal risk if their athletes experience health problems. Here's a strange possibility: an athlete who faked out out at the  semifinals of a tournament then he's immediately cleared to participate soon by the doctor. Kid goes out 2 weeks later, and freak accident, dies on the mat due to traumatic brain injury. Can you imagine the lawsuits? Against the doctor? Against the school? Seems schools would be more than happy to have an impartial expert examine the athletes. Especially after the debacle at Michigan State. Happened at Ohio State to WRESTLERS. You can bet it's happened elsewhere.

Edited by TobusRex

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9 hours ago, ohcomeon said:

I agree. We need to make sure these guys wrestle while injured. I like how we already punish a wrestler for taking injury time during the match too. Wouldn't want those athletes who are actually injured to get the rest and attention they deserve.

why you're at it, eliminate blood time too. Let them bleed like they do in MMA.....<just kidding moderators!!!>

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8 hours ago, TobusRex said:

Medical forfeits should result in automatic scheduling of a hospital visit/physical. Clearance should be required from the doctor before the athlete should be allowed to participate again.

Are you going to pay for it?

If the Coach, trainer, team Doctor or the Wrestler are saying "it is an injury/illness" - let it go.

Trust those who make the decision. Those who game the system will find it coming back on them soon enough.

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10 hours ago, TobusRex said:

Medical forfeits should result in automatic scheduling of a hospital visit/physical. Clearance should be required from the doctor before the athlete should be allowed to participate again.

No doctor in their right mind will endorse an athlete that wants to forfeit out of a tournament as being medically healthy. That's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Heres a simple solution. If you forfeit out of the tournament you forfeit out of the post season entirely. Will this encourage truly injured wrestlers to compete? Probably but that is their own decision and no one is forcing them to wrestle.

And get rid of at large bids while you're at it.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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How about something like this:

If a wrestler medical forfeits a match, he must also medical the following three weeks of scheduled matches. (But I would still allow medical forfeits at conference tournaments. There is already enough incentive to compete in those.)

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On 3/15/2019 at 5:59 AM, CoachWrestling said:

This way of doing things is cowardly to say the least. It’s crazy in a sport considered to be so tough that the coaches lack courage to let their wrestler compete against the best. These coaches need to stop this pigeon-hearted, soft, and weak practice. Very sad to see the sport going in this direction. How do we change this? 

If this gets to be a big enough problem just eliminate seeding. Pull everyone out of a hat. Right now it's a minor problem. You can't have perfection.

You could also seed by team strength. Say Penn State is the no. 1 team. Every PSU wrestler gets seeded #1. If Ohio State is the #2 team, every OSU kid gets the #2 seed, and so on up to the top eight teams. Everyone else gets pulled out of the hat. 

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MFF should not count as a loss. Look, the guy was injured, nobody beat him.

Also, Medical Defaults should not be a loss either. Do you really think the healthy wrestler earned that victory?

Finally, we really need to look at a way to help kids that get hurt during a match, finish it and lose. I think it should be considered a no contest. It really isn't fair that they get a loss on their record when the reason they lost was likely injury.

Wrestling needs to be fair. Not just in the rules, but also with regard to unfortunate circumstances that may happen. Food for thought, what if a kid gets bad coaching? Should that count against him? How about bad nutrition, missing sleep, extra hard classes? These should be discussed in relation to the effect on their record.

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How about this. Medical forfeit out of a tournament and you no longer "place" in that tournament unless you take start an official match and take a forfeit loss..

Ex Nolf and Kemmer in 2018.

Nolf reached the semis and med forfeited to 6th place, but took no losses. In order for Nolf to finish 6th, he must start and forfeit the matches he did not wrestle in. If he withdraws from the tournament, no placement points go to the team, only advancement and bonus earned up until that point. Bump up all lower placing wrestlers up 1 spot. Example the 7th place finisher now becomes the 6th place finisher including placement points, etc.

Also, get rid of the at large bids for NCAAs. You must outright qualify for NCAAs. This will discourage withdrawing from a conference tournament after reaching a placement round.

 

As for duals, not much you can do about it as coaches are capable of sending out a backup.

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47 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

Also, get rid of the at large bids for NCAAs. You must outright qualify for NCAAs. This will discourage withdrawing from a conference tournament after reaching a placement round.

That won't prevent anything. People are now securing their bid and then defaulting and not waiting to be pulled in.

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