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Marcus Cisero

Should College Wrestling Adopt Cumulative Dual Scoring?

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I am all for sports evolving.  If you can show evidence that going to this format will put more butts in seats and increase fan excitement, I will be all in.  Change just for the sake of change seems foolish.

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3 hours ago, buckshot1969 said:

So a team wins eight matches by two points each but loses a MD and TF and loses the dual?

Makes sense.

 

Sounds like that team needs to learn how to widen the gap or they are gonna keep losing (in this hypothetical).

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14 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

Of the 18,000 fans who attend each session at D1, I’d say less than 100 can score the NCAA tournament by hand or even know how. nothing says growth like clinging to scoring systems that can’t even be scored by the majority of its fans, let alone understood by the drive-by sports fan

Great point. I feel the same way about criteria in FS where even the wrestlers aren't always clear if they are winning.

It would be fun to see the point-differential system piloted in a dual tournament. One thing I'm wondering is if such a system could deprive us of big matchups. For example if there was a dual with the #1 and #2 wrestlers at a weight, would we be more likely to see a coaches bump wrestlers up to avoid matches where the point output would be so minimal? It might be better strategy to put an average wrestler up against the #1 (and try to have them turtle up and not get pinned or teched), and then bump their #2 wrestler up a weight where they could bonus? I dunno, the only way is to try it out and see. 

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16 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

Of the 18,000 fans who attend each session at D1, I’d say less than 100 can score the NCAA tournament by hand or even know how. nothing says growth like clinging to scoring systems that can’t even be scored by the majority of its fans, let alone understood by the drive-by sports fan

 

“Of the 18,000 fans who attend each session at D1, I’d say less than 100 can score the NCAA tournament by hand or even know how. 

I’m proud to be among the 17,900 attendees who do not know how to (according to you), but guess what – I still have a damn good time cheering on those I’ve been following during the season. Besides, I prefer watching as many matches as possible as opposed to having my head pointed downward just to complete a bracket book. That’s how you miss those unexpected quick pins!

Edited by Marcus Cisero

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15 hours ago, drag it said:

Agree, it's hard to argue with this basic point. Different issue and not directly on point  but another thing I find frustrating is tournament scheduling when it's very hard to get a read on when certain main draw rounds are going to start because of wrestlebacks. Again for drive-by fans you're making it hard for them to engage when they don't know when to tune in for a match that interests them. 

 

“Again for drive-by fans you're making it hard for them to engage when they don't know when to tune in for a match that interests them. 

I’ve been following wrestling closely since my high school wrestling days during the late 1970’s, yet, I’m a “drive-by fan” who finds it hard to engage in a match that interests me?

Now that’s hilarious!

Edited by Marcus Cisero

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Marcus,

Nothing wrong with not being able to score, but how do you explain that to someone who might have interest in the score? "Just wait until the computer spits it out?" 

Do you go to another sporting event where points are scored and team scores are kept and not know how they're scored? So is it like a dual? No. Thankfully this sport does have the ability to hook people if you can just get them in the door. My first handful of wrestling events were duals, which while oddly arbitrary with how 3-4-5-6 works, it was easy to follow once you got past the part about "so he doesn't score 12 points for scoring 12 points?" 

Tournament scoring is still hard to understand, even to seasoned vets. 

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Cumulative scoring won't increase the action on the mat as much as non-offensive penalty scoring would.   It's really simple.  Unless a wrestler scores a takedown, reversal or stalling point on his opponent, there's one point deducted from his team's score.  No more sending out a turtle to save team points, no more trying to steal a win at the end. It would be better to lose 15-8 than 3-2 (with two escapes)

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Jason

I don't think tournament scoring is hard for those wanting to actually do the work............. it's just that ............ it's work. And that, to me, is the problem. It shouldn't be work. If you try to keep up with scoring yourself........... you are going to miss a bunch of action while you are keeping track of it all.

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1 hour ago, FAU said:

Cumulative scoring won't increase the action on the mat as much as non-offensive penalty scoring would.   It's really simple.  Unless a wrestler scores a takedown, reversal or stalling point on his opponent, there's one point deducted from his team's score.  No more sending out a turtle to save team points, no more trying to steal a win at the end. It would be better to lose 15-8 than 3-2 (with two escapes)

I don’t think you’re looking at this the same way some of us are. The point those who like a PDI kind of dual score is ... you score 15, your team gets 15. I could also be responding to something you’re responding to that is on a different tangent. 

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On 3/15/2019 at 5:05 PM, Marcus Cisero said:

This involves adding a point to the team score for every point scored on the mat. 

This concept may prevent a wrestler from getting a small lead and hanging on while watching the clock. You could be the best guy lighting up the score board vs. a guy with only a few escape points, yet both guys are now motivated to score points for themselves, and their team. Even a second string guy could benefit from this as opposed to just going in to fill a void for a starter who’s injured or sick for a particular match.

Should college wrestling adopt cumulative dual scoring?

What’s your thoughts?

Back in the 1980s the late Bob Dellinger of Stillwater Ok. tried the idea. It involved a triangular dual meet between OK. State, and a couple other smaller colleges. No noticeable effect occured. The final scores were basketball huge but that was about it. You can contact John or LeRoy Smith about it as they were on campus at the time and would remember if the idea had any merit. 

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14 minutes ago, Cooch1 said:

Back in the 1980s the late Bob Dellinger of Stillwater Ok. tried the idea. It involved a triangular dual meet between OK. State, and a couple other smaller colleges. No noticeable effect occured. The final scores were basketball huge but that was about it. You can contact John or LeRoy Smith about it as they were on campus at the time and would remember if the idea had any merit. 

Thanks for the interesting history Cooch, and the feedback too!

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The only way to make team scoring simple and also make sense is to only award placement points and nothing else. Any system that includes advancement or points for margin of victory is just as complicated as what we have now. Tournament scoring is complicated because tournaments are complicated.

A website that is great during the NCAA tournament is the Penn State Wrestling Club page. If you haven't seen it, they keep track of all the scoring and also potential scoring. As the tournament winds down, you can track who still can win and what needs to happen to eliminate a team from contention.

https://pennstatewrestlingclub.org/content/tournament_team_score.php?id=22&type=team

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Additional Rules

 NO  tech fall - you wrestled the entire 7 minutes.

Nolf 74 - Wrestler A 7

Lee 116 - Wrestler A 5

 

NO Med forfeit - bad kneee - oh well 

Picc 349 - Micic 13

 

NO overtime matches

Hall 2. Wrestler A 2

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6 hours ago, spladle said:

We don't need to find results.  The sheer fact that it could happen is enough of a detraction.  If we went through the history of all college duals and found a single instance would that satisfy you?

We haven't found a single instance in the last three years (with thousands of results available on the web). There's a lot of things that are possible but don't happen. It's possible for a team to lose 10 matches by disqualification, but the sheer fact it COULD happen ... what does that even mean? 

There were over 2,500 duals this year across all college divisions. There MIGHT have been 5-6 that had teams with four wins beat teams with six. It's the same thing. Just because something's possible doesn't mean it's actually happened. It's "possible" a team could win 10 individual national championships. Just because something outlandish has the possibility of happening in a sport doesn't mean that's a reason to just poo poo it. I think the idea has merit. We need to stop thinking matches would be the same way, because the sheer fact people would wrestle differently with duals on the line. 

I think you need to find a result that would validate this could happen. You can throw a hypothetical "nine one point wins" dual out there, but find one so we can see if people who are just dumping on the idea actually have any statistical merit or they just don't like it because we don't like it and wrestling is the most change-averse sport in the history of the universe. I don't have a stat or result to validate that claim, but the sheer fact it could be right is all I need. Let's try to look at this with an open mind. I think it's got merit. 

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If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think scoring at NCAAs is fine the way it is. Maybe they could tweak the points awarded a little bit. Should a guy get as many points as he does for a fall under the current system?

Anyway, I think it's okay as it is now. Can anybody say the best team hasn't won NCAAs in the last 15-20 years? Probably not. That's the goal, right, to make sure the best team ends up on top and each team has a fair chance?

Edited by TobusRex

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2 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

I don’t think you’re looking at this the same way some of us are. The point those who like a PDI kind of dual score is ... you score 15, your team gets 15. I could also be responding to something you’re responding to that is on a different tangent. 

I understand that some are in favor of cumulative scoring as Wade proposes hoping that it increases action.  I'm saying that if you want to increase action, you need to penalize lack of action by penalizing the team of wrestlers that don't score offensive points.   Cumulative scoring is going to lead to even more low scoring.  Wrestler A is better than Wrestler B.  Under Cumulative, B's objective will be to keep it as low scoring as possible.  Under the penalty proposal, wrestler B better try some offense because his 5-1 loss is the same as a major, team score wise meaning it would be a 4 point swing.  3 for A's decision and -1 for B's for lack of offensive points.  The only change you'd have to make is forfeits would be worth 7 team points, the same as a pin with no offense.

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Heres simple.

1 point for a win. That's it.

Team wins 6 matches in a dual, they win the dual.

5-5? Team with most pins, then techs, then majors win after that the dual ends in a tie.

Tournaments?

Placement points only.

10 for first

8 for 2nd

6 for 3rd

5 for 4th

4 for 5th

3 for 6th

2 for 7th

1 for 8th.

Same tie breaker as duals.

Explain that to a non-wrestling person they understand it right away.

 

Why no bonus points? Because if you win in the NCAA finals by 10 second pin or double overtime tie breaker gets you the same result, NCAA Champion which really is all that matters.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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18 hours ago, spladle said:

We don't need to find results.  The sheer fact that it could happen is enough of a detraction.  If we went through the history of all college duals and found a single instance would that satisfy you?

Exactly. Just think of the very real possibility that a team wins seven close matches but loses a dual because one of their starters is injured and his backup gets pinned.

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Exactly. Just think of the very real possibility that a team wins seven close matches but loses a dual because one of their starters is injured and his backup gets pinned.

It’s possible but has that kind of result ever happened. A lot of things are possible that never happen and we don’t just dismiss an idea because of illogical possibilities. If it’s very real, let’s find a result where that very real result happened. Again, it’s not like we have a system that the duals actually impact anything meaningful other than individual matches anyway.

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41 minutes ago, JasonBryant said:


It’s possible but has that kind of result ever happened. A lot of things are possible that never happen and we don’t just dismiss an idea because of illogical possibilities. If it’s very real, let’s find a result where that very real result happened. Again, it’s not like we have a system that the duals actually impact anything meaningful other than individual matches anyway.

The problem is if/when illogical or unlikely things do eventually happen, people will whine and complain saying "why weren't there things in place to prevent this from happening!" Isnt that the job of rule makers?

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A few years ago, no one cared about the “first takedown” criteria until it impacted a D1 dual ... the second season it was in place. They then altered the criteria, but anomalies happen in every sport in some way, shape or form. You can legislate out an anomaly, but its presence has to show up in order for it to be plausible.

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1 hour ago, JasonBryant said:


It’s possible but has that kind of result ever happened. A lot of things are possible that never happen and we don’t just dismiss an idea because of illogical possibilities. If it’s very real, let’s find a result where that very real result happened. Again, it’s not like we have a system that the duals actually impact anything meaningful other than individual matches anyway.

That kind of results happens.  A team like Rutgers with a couple of great wrestlers and a bunch of middling guys are going to have this happen.  Vs Utah Valley, they won three matches but actually had more points scored during matches as they had  two majors and Ashanault was up big when he pinned.  I'm sure if we looked, we'd find quite a few matches that fit that criteria.

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That kind of results happens.  A team like Rutgers with a couple of great wrestlers and a bunch of middling guys are going to have this happen.  Vs Utah Valley, they won three matches but actually had more points scored during matches as they had  two majors and Ashanault was up big when he pinned.  I'm sure if we looked, we'd find quite a few matches that fit that criteria.

Utah Valley would have won that dual 65-61 based on Kyle and Andy’s PDI.

But again, with this system in place, to win duals, the point is to score more. Do we see more guys going for the major and going for the fall? We don’t know, but we can’t just assume people would wrestle the same if the intent is to win the dual.

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Simple is always better. The more complex things are the fewer people want to be involved. 

I have not really thought this through but what about 1 point for a win and a bonus point for a pin? The breaker most pins then total match points scored. If both criteria are the identical then it's a tie. 

 

 

 

 

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