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Toughest weight bracket, all-time at the NCAA's

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2 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Well I don't know, I guess we could ignore future results, but when we attempted to do that, you insisted they should be considered with Foley. So you only want to use it when its convenient? or is it one year after? Go ahead, Mokoma, you decide, but stick to something.

That’s exactly what I’m asking you guys do.  I’m fine with future counting for this argument, but even in that case 149 gets beat out.

It’s pretty clear if you don’t count future then 149 is kind of weak.

Edited by Mokoma

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3 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

Lmao not that interesting as this happens very very often, multiple times a year probably.

I said it was interesting, I didn't say it was some monumental feat.  Hell, I find it interesting when pizza tastes good and that probably happens 1 million times a day!

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6 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

That’s exactly what I’m asking you guys do.  I’m fine with future counting for this argument, but even in that case 149 gets beat out.

It’s pretty clear if you don’t count future then 149 is kind of weak.

Let me ask, did you follow DI wrestling in 2008?  How old were you then?  Did you go to that year's NCAA Tournament?  I ask because I just don't see ANY metric that would call that 149 bracket "kind of weak" and can't see how someone that followed wrestling closely back then would say it UNLESS they are intentionally trolling...........

Edited to add for clarity:  I say the above because a huge portion of fans as well as the limited "aficionados"(we didn't have FLO and nearly the Social Media presence we do today" were truly buzzing about 149, not only going into NCAA's, but B1Gs as well.  That weight class wasn't hyped 3 years later once everyone's career was over, it was hyped before and during......

Edited by MSU158

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8 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

I am NOT arguing with you on that.  If you look back at my posts on this topic you will see I CLEARLY said it shouldn't be the only metric, but it IS an important one.  Problem is, most people only see or respond to numbers.  Tallying up career AA's accomplishes that.  But, as a true fan of wrestling, look deeper than just those accomplishments.  Granted, if you weren't following closely in 2008, you really won't be able to.  But, if you were, you realize how good Metcalf, Jenkins, Burroughs, Churella, Caldwell, O'Connor, Schlatter and Palmer were.  On top of that Patacsil, Hall, Kinser and Lang were pretty damn tough.

INTERSTING STAT:  All 8 guys that made the quarterfinals in that bracket, AA'd.  

I understand what you're saying, but the difficulty there is accurately gauging how tough an individual was at that specific time ie Was Metcalf better as a Sophomore (the year he won) or a Junior (the year he lost)? Personally I though Junior year Metcalf was tougher than Sophomore year.

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2 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Let me ask, did you follow DI wrestling in 2008?  How old were you then?  Did you got to that year's NCAA Tournament?  I ask because I just don't see ANY metric that would call that 149 bracket "kind of weak" and can't see how someone that followed wrestling closely back then would say it UNLESS they are intentionally trolling...........

In the metric that only counts what they had accomplished to that point.  BigTenFanBoy explained already.

Yes, I was a college wrestler during 2008 NCAA’s.  It was a good weight class, but mostly full of unproven guys at that level, compared to some others mentioned.

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1 minute ago, BigTenFanboy said:

I understand what you're saying, but the difficulty there is accurately gauging how tough an individual was at that specific time ie Was Metcalf better as a Sophomore (the year he won) or a Junior (the year he lost)? Personally I though Junior year Metcalf was tougher than Sophomore year.

As far as Metcalf goes, I firmly disagree.  He was at his best in 2008 because he wrestled truly free, his motor was at an all time high. and he hadn't really been scouted to the detail he had later on.  But, I do agree that gauging everyone is hard.  Still, I don't believe many of them improved all that much except for Burroughs and some either fell to injury or just didn't progress after.

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2 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

As far as Metcalf goes, I firmly disagree.  He was at his best in 2008 because he wrestled truly free, his motor was at an all time high. and he hadn't really been scouted to the detail he had later on.  But, I do agree that gauging everyone is hard.  Still, I don't believe many of them improved all that much except for Burroughs and some either fell to injury or just didn't progress after.

No snark here, seriously asking. Are you saying Metcalf peaked his first year of NCAA competition for his folkstyle career?

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4 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

In the metric that only counts what they had accomplished to that point.  BigTenFanBoy explained already.

Yes, I was a college wrestler during 2008 NCAA’s.  It was a good weight class, but mostly full of unproven guys at that level, compared to some others mentioned.

In that metric the bracket still had a returning Champ, 2 Finalists and a 4th and 5th place finisher.  I don't see how that is kind of weak.  Kind of weak was 197 last year or especially 197 this year before Bo came up.

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1 minute ago, MSU158 said:

In that metric the bracket still had a returning Champ, 2 Finalists and a 4th and 5th place finisher.  I don't see how that is kind of weak.  Kind of weak was 197 last year or especially 197 this year before Bo came up.

I think he is just trolling at this point.

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1 minute ago, MSU158 said:

In that metric the bracket still had a returning Champ, 2 Finalists and a 4th and 5th place finisher.  I don't see how that is kind of weak.  Kind of weak was 197 last year or especially 197 this year before Bo came up.

Because if you compare it to 133 this year, or 125 in 2018 or many other weight classes, it has a lot less returning quality.

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2 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

No snark here, seriously asking. Are you saying Metcalf peaked his first year of NCAA competition for his folkstyle career?

Yes, I believe he did.  He was one of the most college ready wrestlers I had EVER seen coming out of High School and I think that was evidenced by Schlatter winning it as a TF., as they were both really close in High School. 

Also, his style hinge a lot on his relentless pace and ability to wear people down.  By his Senior season, he wasn't as far ahead of the field in that category.  Now, that isn't to say I think he dropped off, but I do think he was about the same or maybe a tiny bit better his sophomore and junior seasons than his last.

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Not trolling.  133 has already been showed to have a lot more returning.

 

125 had 2 champs in Tomasello and Cruz and 2 finalists in Moisey and Lizak returning.  

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1 minute ago, Mokoma said:

Because if you compare it to 133 this year, or 125 in 2018 or many other weight classes, it has a lot less returning quality.

But, you are being disingenuous if you use that metric to dismiss a 1st year talent like Metcalf or guys like Jenkins and Caldwell wrestling at their ideal weights as only true sophomores having both wrestled different weights as TF's.

Still, I am obviously not going to change your mind and don't want to continue to go back and forth.  I have given my reasoning and feel free to disagree.  Good day, sir!

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3 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Now, that isn't to say I think he dropped off, but I do think he was about the same or maybe a tiny bit better his sophomore and junior seasons than his last.

If he was best his sophomore year... and he he was better as a junior than he was as a senior... how is that not saying he dropped off.. even if by a tiny margin?

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10 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

If he was best his sophomore year... and he he was better as a junior than he was as a senior... how is that not saying he dropped off.. even if by a tiny margin?

To me, "dropping off" implies substantial movement.  I think he was the same wrestler all 3 years, but his body, and even his mindset, seemed fresher as a sophomore.  I also think the loss to Caldwell at NCAA's changed him a bit.  He started picking matches and times to wrestle more conservative and his body didn't seem to maintain the relentless pace he set as a sophomore.

With that said, I am not certain that the sophomore version would beat the senior version so, if there was a change I think it was minimal.

 

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12 minutes ago, BigTenFanboy said:

If he was best his sophomore year... and he he was better as a junior than he was as a senior... how is that not saying he dropped off.. even if by a tiny margin?

How much is someone supposed to get better across the course of their career? Is it possible that when you get to such a level like NCAA champ its hard to continue to get better and better? This year 165, 174,  and 184 all had guys that won in years past that didn't this year. Thats not considering all the guys who placed lower than they did in years past or didn't even AA. Did all of them drop off or is it possible that there is more at play when the talent level is that high?

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

How much is someone supposed to get better across the course of their career? Is it possible that when you get to such a level like NCAA champ its hard to continue to get better and better? This year 165, 174,  and 184 all had guys that won in years past that didn't this year. Thats not considering all the guys who placed lower than they did in years past or didn't even AA. Did all of them drop off or is it possible that there is more at play when the talent level is that high?

I don't know. I'm not the one who made the statement that Metcalf was better as a sophomore than as a junior... and better as a junior than as a senior..

 

As for how much is someone supposed to get better? I would say if your better even by the slightest margin.. that means you improved. If you're worse even by the slightest margin you've dropped off.

165 this year? I would say Joseph was at this best this year. Lewis just came along and was better.

174 I would say this was the best version of Hall we've seen. Zahid was better last year so he dropped off a little, but in the end was still better than Hall.

184 I would say Myles was at his best this year, and just goofed up in the semis.

Edited by BigTenFanboy

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1 minute ago, BigTenFanboy said:

I don't know. I'm not the one who made the statement that Metcalf was better as a sophomore than as a junior... and better as a junior than as a senior..

To be CLEAR, I said he was the same the 1st 2 years and was probably the same the last or MAYBE  a "tiny bit" better his 1st 2 than the last.

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Just now, BigTenFanboy said:

I don't know. I'm not the one who made the statement that Metcalf was better as a sophomore than as a junior... and better as a junior than as a senior..

Yeah, I don't know that I agree with that. I think he was likely better his senior year, but had been scouted thoroughly at that point. It was harder to get the easy tech/major. Also when you wrestle a guy as good as Palmer as many times as he did, bound to take a loss at some point.

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1 minute ago, russelscout said:

Yeah, I don't know that I agree with that. I think he was likely better his senior year, but had been scouted thoroughly at that point. It was harder to get the easy tech/major. Also when you wrestle a guy as good as Palmer as many times as he did, bound to take a loss at some point.

FYI I'm of the opinion that Metcalf was better as a junior than as a sophomore.

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34 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

But, you are being disingenuous if you use that metric to dismiss a 1st year talent like Metcalf or guys like Jenkins and Caldwell wrestling at their ideal weights as only true sophomores having both wrestled different weights as TF's.

Still, I am obviously not going to change your mind and don't want to continue to go back and forth.  I have given my reasoning and feel free to disagree.  Good day, sir!

And 125 has first year wrestler Lee and Suriano who was competing at NCAA for first time as well as Tomasello back at his ideal weight.  So again 125 has same thing.

Edited by Mokoma

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1 minute ago, BigTenFanboy said:

I already acknowledged that when I said " even if by a tiny margin"

No, what I quoted and responded to left out the MAYBE and inaccurately said I stated he was better as a Junior than a Soph with both being better than his Senior season.

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