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Toughest weight bracket, all-time at the NCAA's

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53 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

I tend to agree with him. Caldwell besting Metcalf a year later made that bracket so much tougher. Metcalf was so dominant that season and even though Caldwell pinned him, Caldwell lost twice to take 5th, Losing to 2 different guys that Metcalf had owned. 

Caldwell winning the following year not only boosted his cred, but those that beat him. 

But the point is it’s still all the same guys so who gets the title shouldn’t matter if they’re all so good.  (In my opinion anyone that is a 3X AA or a top 5 finisher any year is a bad ass).

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3 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

But the point is it’s still all the same guys so who gets the title shouldn’t matter if they’re all so good.  (In my opinion anyone that is a 3X AA or a top 5 finisher any year is a bad ass).

If one guy clearly stands at the top it can lessen the depth. However, if the guy that took 5th can beat that champ the next season, that depth looks that much stronger. 

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11 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

If one guy clearly stands at the top it can lessen the depth. However, if the guy that took 5th can beat that champ the next season, that depth looks that much stronger. 

Well Picc and Rivera both have wins over 2X champ Lee (should be 3), so doesn’t that show the depth?

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1 hour ago, Mokoma said:

Well Picc and Rivera both have wins over 2X champ Lee (should be 3), so doesn’t that show the depth?

It definitely does, just not nearly to the extent of Caldwell beating Metcalf for an NCAA Championship. As we both know, regular season results are nearly forgotten after NCAA’s.  Plus, Lee has proven to be a different animal at NCAA’s. He peaks almost perfectly. 

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On 4/5/2019 at 6:24 PM, Mokoma said:

Another way to compare 125 in 2018 and 149 in 2008 would be to compare each placement.

1.  Lee vs Metcalf   Lee in 2 seasons is a 2 time champ.  Metcalf at this point was in his 3rd season and is a 1 time champ.  Advantage 2018.

2. Suriano vs Jenkins  Suriano in 2 seasons was 3rd seed with easy wins over both finalists then runner up to Lee.  Jenkins in his 2 seasons went 1-2 at NCAA's then runner up to Metcalf while having 18 losses in 2 seasons.  Advantage 2018.

3.  Tomasello vs Burroughs.  Tomasello finishes a brilliant career as a 4 time top 3 and 1 time champ.  Burroughs gets first AA finish.  Advantage 2018

4.  Lizak vs J. Churella.  Churella was 8-2-4 while Lizak was 2-4 with 1 year remaining. This weight I would call equal.

5. Cruz vs Caldwell.  Cruz was the undefeated returning champ while Caldwell got his first AA finish.  Advantage 2018

6. Rivera vs O'Connor.  Rivera was a freshman and O'Connor gets his 2nd AA 5th and 6th.  Advantage 2008

7.  Bresser vs Schlatter. Schlatter was the champ 2 years prior, and 3rd the previous year.   Advantage 2008

8. Moisey vs Palmer.  Moisey was a previous runner up while Palmer was 4th.  Advantage 2018

So if you break it down by finisher 125 in 2018 wins 5, 149 in 2008 has 2 while 1 place finish is equal.  

I don't know how it gets more simple than this.

In terms of careers, IMO:

Lee > Metcalf

Suriano > Jenkins

Tomasello < Burroughs

Lizak = Churella

Cruz = Caldwell (this is being lenient since we don't know what Caldwell would have done as a senior and could have easily claimed the advantage if he was healthy)

Rivera = O'Connor (again being lenient since we don't know what Rivera would have done this year and he has a year left, but it's basically assuming he will or would have won)

Bresser < Schlatter

Moisey < Palmer

So 2018 125 was better at the top, but 2008 149 was deeper.

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3 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

In terms of careers, IMO:

Lee > Metcalf

Suriano > Jenkins

Tomasello < Burroughs

Lizak = Churella

Cruz = Caldwell (this is being lenient since we don't know what Caldwell would have done as a senior and could have easily claimed the advantage if he was healthy)

Rivera = O'Connor (again being lenient since we don't know what Rivera would have done this year and he has a year left, but it's basically assuming he will or would have won)

Bresser < Schlatter

Moisey < Palmer

So 2018 125 was better at the top, but 2008 149 was deeper.

If it’s a career we are looking at I do agree that 149 in 2008 is a super accomplished group.  Part of my argument is that, at the time of the tourney, it’s a fairly inexperienced group compared to some other great weight classes.

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

If one guy clearly stands at the top it can lessen the depth. However, if the guy that took 5th can beat that champ the next season, that depth looks that much stronger. 

or it means that the champ really isn't that good...

i can see both ways... but losing to a guy once in awhile doesn't necessarily mean the other guy is better, it might mean im not as good...

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3 minutes ago, GockeS said:

or it means that the champ really isn't that good...

i can see both ways... but losing to a guy once in awhile doesn't necessarily mean the other guy is better, it might mean im not as good...

It could mean that, but I am pretty confident that Metcalf was that good and Caldwell was that talented.  Caldwell just couldn’t maintain that level for long. But, when at his best he was really good. 

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1 minute ago, MSU158 said:

It could mean that, but I am pretty confident that Metcalf was that good and Caldwell was that talented.  Caldwell just couldn’t maintain that level for long. But, when at his best he was really good. 

i agree.

i also think longevity comes into play

spencer is that good...b/c of that...

metcalf not so much

caldwell not so much, that said... caldwell should have dominated at every NCAA he was well suited to be that last sprint guy like you said.

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3 hours ago, GockeS said:

did i make an error or something?

I saw the blanks and thought I was helping by filling them in.  I see now that it was irrelevant because they didn't AA in another year.  

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Apologies if this was proposed before.  One method is to discover the total number of unique champions rather than total championships.  This means 4x NC Kyle Dake counts as 1 unique champion as the first qualification criteria for a tough bracket.  Tie breaker criteria would then look at total number of NCs, AAs, etc.  I compiled a list of all D1 all americans from 1960 to 2019 and made it available for anyone here.  Check it out and experiment with the data.  Below is a list of seasonal brackets where the all-americans of that year were national champions in any year.

These stand out

  • 6 unique NCs
    • 2008 - 149lbs
  • 5 unique NCs
    • 2014 - 125lbs
  • 4 unique NCs
    • 1976 - 142lbs
    • 1979 - 142lbs
    • 1981 - 134lbs
    • 1986 - 142lbs
    • 1989 - 126lbs
    • 1994 - 142lbs
    • 1996 - 167lbs
    • 1998 - 118lbs
    • 1999 - 149lbs
    • 1999 - 133lbs
    • 2007 - 149lbs
    • 2007 - 125lbs
    • 2009 - 125lbs
    • 2017 - 184lbs
    • 2018 - 125lbs


In hindsight, it would had been nice to have captured all national qualifiers.  Then one could cross ref all wrestlers to include a DNP wrestler that was an AA or NC in other years.  I did this manually for three 125lb brackets over here and found 2006 to be interesting in that Paul Donahoe was a 3xAA and National Champion that DNP.

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2 hours ago, jross said:

Apologies if this was proposed before.  One method is to discover the total number of unique champions rather than total championships.  This means 4x NC Kyle Dake counts as 1 unique champion as the first qualification criteria for a tough bracket.  Tie breaker criteria would then look at total number of NCs, AAs, etc.  I compiled a list of all D1 all americans from 1960 to 2019 and made it available for anyone here.  Check it out and experiment with the data.  Below is a list of seasonal brackets where the all-americans of that year were national champions in any year.

These stand out

  • 6 unique NCs
    • 2008 - 149lbs
  • 5 unique NCs
    • 2014 - 125lbs
  • 4 unique NCs
    • 1976 - 142lbs
    • 1979 - 142lbs
    • 1981 - 134lbs
    • 1986 - 142lbs
    • 1989 - 126lbs
    • 1994 - 142lbs
    • 1996 - 167lbs
    • 1998 - 118lbs
    • 1999 - 149lbs
    • 1999 - 133lbs
    • 2007 - 149lbs
    • 2007 - 125lbs
    • 2009 - 125lbs
    • 2017 - 184lbs
    • 2018 - 125lbs


In hindsight, it would had been nice to have captured all national qualifiers.  Then one could cross ref all wrestlers to include a DNP wrestler that was an AA or NC in other years.  I did this manually for three 125lb brackets over here and found 2006 to be interesting in that Paul Donahoe was a 3xAA and National Champion that DNP.

i like this idea if they weren't in the same weight... a bunch of champs coming together from a different weight... or weren't in the same year (like gross coming back after a redshirt)... that would be special

Edited by GockeS

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