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Toughest weight bracket, all-time at the NCAA's

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43 minutes ago, KTG119 said:

well Barry did have his weight cutting troubles that year. almost gave it all away for a bag of donuts and some M&Ms at the Hy Vee.  

That's right Barry almost "missed" the Big Ten meet in Ann Arbor......NCAA's were in Ames that year.

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4 hours ago, pamela said:

Alan Waters?

Alan Waters took a redshirt during the 2013-14 season. However, I did miss Conor Youtsey (2x all american), amongst other future/past all americans such as Rauser, Terao, Patterson, Taylor, Klimara, Kraisser etc.

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I think 2019 174 should also be discussed as a really tough bracket (maybe not in the toughest category)

1st: Zahid Valencia (3,1,1,?) Potential 4x all-american

2nd: Mark Hall (1,2,2,?) Potential 4x all-american

3rd: Myles Amine (4,3,3,?) Potential 4x all-american

4th: Daniel Lewis (4,6,4,4)  4x all-american

5th: David McFadden (6,5,5,?) Potential 4x all-american

6th: Mikey Labriola (6,?,?,?) Potential 4x all-american

7th: Jordan Kutler (6,7,?) Potential 3x all-american

8th: Devin Skatzka (8,?) Potential 2x all-american

This bracket also includes All-Americans Womack and Jacobe, as well as any future all-americans. (Important to note that Kemerer could've been another potential 4x all-american in this bracket)

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26 minutes ago, yonz_g said:

I think 2019 174 should also be discussed as a really tough bracket (maybe not in the toughest category)

1st: Zahid Valencia (3,1,1,?) Potential 4x all-american

2nd: Mark Hall (1,2,2,?) Potential 4x all-american

3rd: Myles Amine (4,3,3,?) Potential 4x all-american

4th: Daniel Lewis (4,6,4,4)  4x all-american

5th: David McFadden (6,5,5,?) Potential 4x all-american

6th: Mikey Labriola (6,?,?,?) Potential 4x all-american

7th: Jordan Kutler (6,7,?) Potential 3x all-american

8th: Devin Skatzka (8,?) Potential 2x all-american

This bracket also includes All-Americans Womack and Jacobe, as well as any future all-americans. (Important to note that Kemerer could've been another potential 4x all-american in this bracket)

And Kutler would have likely been a #2 or #3 seed his RS FR year, when he did not weigh-in at EIWAs.

The other thing about this weight class is that the core for the past two years is basically at the same year from an eligibility standpoint (JRs):  Zahid, Hall, Amine, Kutler, with Lewis graduating.  McFadden just moved in this year.

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On 3/16/2019 at 1:05 PM, BigTenFanboy said:

In 2008 most of those accomplishments had not yet taken place. - 6 previous AA placements with 2 of them outside the top 4.

Metcalf was not yet an AA

Lance Palmer was a 1x AA returning 4

JB not yet an AA

Caldwell not yet an AA

Schlatter 2x AA 1 and Returning 3

Churella 2x AA 8 and returning 2

Jenkins not yet an AA

O'connor a 1x AA returning 5

 

Compared to this years 133 - 7 previous AA placements all within the top 4.

Miccic 2x AA 4 AND returning 2

Lizak 2x AA 2 and returning 4

Suriano returning 2

Pletcher returning 4

Wilson returning 3

The 2008 bracket went on to do some amazing things, but you cant give credit for how tough a bracket is form things they haven't yet accomplished.

 

 

 

 

Agreed, at the time I would consider 149 2008 to be a fairly weak bracket.  Sure if what you did later counts, then those guys ended up pretty good but they were all young and unproven at that point.

But if that is how we are looking at brackets 125 2018 has a good chance to beat it easily in all Americans.  Spencer Lee, Nick Suriano, Nathan Tomasello, Ethan Lizak, Darian Cruz, Sebastian Rivera, Ronnie Bresser and Zeke Moisey.  This weight already has 5 championships and 20 AA’s with Spencer and Sebastian 2 more years and Nick 1 more, so likely 25 AA’s.

I never understood why that bracket is always considered so good.

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149 was not considered a weak class in 2008. Holy Cow. Everyone knew the top four plus Schlatter were insanely good. Iowa fans were scared sh*tless of Caldwell and Schlatter - and, Palmer gave Metcalf fits. 

At the tournament the pre-semifinal buzz at 149 was insane. It was the talk of the tournament. In the quarters, Palmer almost had a late takedown to beat Metcalf and everyone knew he'd be a tough out. 

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3 minutes ago, ThatLogSchuteWasCarrying said:

When people post 'X All Americans' are they meaning that many of the wrestlers in that bracket were All Americans at some point in their careers? Or counting multiple honors like 8 guys all being three time AAs as 24 All Americans? 

They’re counting total AA’s from the top 8 finishers.

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39 minutes ago, headache said:

149 was not considered a weak class in 2008. Holy Cow. Everyone knew the top four plus Schlatter were insanely good. Iowa fans were scared sh*tless of Caldwell and Schlatter - and, Palmer gave Metcalf fits. 

At the tournament the pre-semifinal buzz at 149 was insane. It was the talk of the tournament. In the quarters, Palmer almost had a late takedown to beat Metcalf and everyone knew he'd be a tough out. 

Remember Ryan Lang who was a finalist the year before at 141 didn't make it very far in this bracket. Like rd of 32 when he lost to perennial rd of 12 guy Will Rowe. Patacsil went on to AA the next year and he lost in RD of 12. Adam Hall became a 2x AA and lost in rd of 12. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Mokoma said:

Agreed, at the time I would consider 149 2008 to be a fairly weak bracket.  Sure if what you did later counts, then those guys ended up pretty good but they were all young and unproven at that point.

 

You may have felt that way, but I don't think anyone else felt that way. Schlatter and Metcalf were often in the discussion of the best high school wrestlers ever. Schlatter already had a title and 3rd place finish and Metcalf didn't exactly fly in under the radar. Palmer also was a huge recruit and got 4th the year before. Like I said, Lang was a returning finalist. Churella was a returning finalist. Jenkins was a Junior World Champ. Caldwell had all sorts of buzz after pinning Metcalf. The one guy who maybe was completely under appreciated at the time was Burroughs. I can't think of a more proven field going into the NCAAs. 

That bracket is pretty much the reason Metcalf got the Hodge despite having a loss on the year. He tore through an insanely tough bracket. 

Edited by russelscout

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23 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Remember Ryan Lang who was a finalist the year before at 141 didn't make it very far in this bracket. Like rd of 32 when he lost to perennial rd of 12 guy Will Rowe. Patacsil went on to AA the next year and he lost in RD of 12. Adam Hall became a 2x AA and lost in rd of 12. 

 

 

You may have felt that way, but I don't think anyone else felt that way. Schlatter and Metcalf were often in the discussion of the best high school wrestlers ever. Schlatter already had a title and 3rd place finish and Metcalf didn't exactly fly in under the radar. Palmer also was a huge recruit and got 4th the year before. Like I said, Lang was a returning finalist. Churella was a returning finalist. Jenkins was a Junior World Champ. Caldwell had all sorts of buzz after pinning Metcalf. The one guy who maybe was completely under appreciated at the time was Burroughs. I can't think of a more proven field going into the NCAAs. 

That bracket is pretty much the reason Metcalf got the Hodge despite having a loss on the year. He tore through an insanely tough bracket. 

So how would you compare the 2018 125 to it?

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Just now, russelscout said:

going into it or now?

Either I guess.  Going into it I would say it’s similar.  Lee and Suriano as high school best ever discussion, returning finalists and champs etc.

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31 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

Either I guess.  Going into it I would say it’s similar.  Lee and Suriano as high school best ever discussion, returning finalists and champs etc.

I don't think it is similar as both Moisey and Lizak's stock had dropped significantly. This is based off perception right? Flo didn't even consider 125 the toughest weight class at the time as they defended 141 and 165 before and after when they put out the p4p rankings. 

I see the comparison with Lee/Suriano, but Metcalf/Schlatter was bigger IMO, probably because they wrestled twice their senior year, went back and forth, and then Schlatter stepped on the scene and beat Esposito the next year as a true Freshman. It left a big "What if" about Metcalf that had been building up over 2 years. 

However, if you want to call flo ridiculous for believing that and then defending it like it was obvious, I totally agree. I just think the hype of 149 was much higher in 2008.

Edited by russelscout

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4 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I don't think it is similar as both Moisey and Lizak's stock had dropped significantly. This is based off perception right? Flo didn't even consider 125 the toughest weight class at the time as they defended 141 and 165 before and after when they put out the p4p rankings. 

I see the comparison with Lee/Suriano, but Metcalf/Schlatter was bigger IMO, probably because they wrestled twice their senior year, went back and forth, and then Schlatter stepped on the scene and beat Esposito the next year as a true Freshman. It left a big "What if" about Metcalf that had been building up over 2 years. 

Lee stepped in as a true freshman and beat Tomasello, while Suriano still had the big what if, because of his injury.  Don’t forget the weight class also had previous champ Cruz, who we hadn’t even mentioned yet.  Didn’t Suriano and Lee go back and forth as well, albeit not in senior year since they were in different classes.

 

 

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As far as coming into college, I'd say the prospects between those 4 would have been ranked against each other as follows:

1.  Spencer Lee

2.  Dustin Schlatter

3.  Brent Metcalf

4.  Nick Suriano

Suriano was a tier or two below those guys, IMO, with Schlatter and Metcalf slightly behind Lee.

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2 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

Lee stepped in as a true freshman and beat Tomasello, while Suriano still had the big what if, because of his injury.  Don’t forget the weight class also had previous champ Cruz, who we hadn’t even mentioned yet.  Didn’t Suriano and Lee go back and forth as well, albeit not in senior year since they were in different classes.

 

 

Lee's 8th grade year. A little different. I don't disagree with you. This 125 bracket was awesome and vastly under appreciated going in by flo. I initially was responding to you saying that 149 was "fairly weak". I just think that is way way off and not consistent with the views in 2008. I will give that 125 is comparable from achievements going into the tourney, but it certainly isn't significantly better if better at all. 

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12 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

As far as coming into college, I'd say the prospects between those 4 would have been ranked against each other as follows:

1.  Spencer Lee

2.  Dustin Schlatter

3.  Brent Metcalf

4.  Nick Suriano

Suriano was a tier or two below those guys, IMO, with Schlatter and Metcalf slightly behind Lee.

Just my opinion and I love Lee, but IMO Schlatter is the most technically and physically superior senior I have ever seen, even though he did lose to Metcalf in a very very close match. I truly believe he could have won a NCAA title as a senior. I realize that not everyone feels that way and you certainly don't need to. His legacy is somewhat hurt in comparison by not having the cadet freestyle circuit that was available to Lee. I do agree that Suraino is a tier below those guys coming in.

Edited by russelscout

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4 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Lee's 8th grade year. A little different. I don't disagree with you. This 125 bracket was awesome and vastly under appreciated going in by flo. I initially was responding to you saying that 149 was "fairly weak". I just think that is way way off and not consistent with the views in 2008. I will give that 125 is comparable from achievements going into the tourney, but it certainly isn't significantly better if better at all. 

Yeah maybe me saying it was fairly weak is an exaggeration, but I still believe using future results is a bad way to compare weight classes.  Obviously a senior year Burroughs would have destroyed anyone in that weight class.

But if future results count, then once Lee, Rivera and Suriano are done, then 125 will have quite a few more AA’s, finalists and has a chance to at least tie or pass in championships as well.

 

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Just my opinion and I love Lee, but IMO Schlatter is the most technically and physically superior senior I have ever seen, even though he did lose to Metcalf in a very very close match. I truly believe he could have won a NCAA title as a senior. I realize that not everyone feels that way and you certainly don't need to. His legacy is somewhat hurt in comparison by not having the cadet freestyle circuit that was available to Lee. I do agree that Suraino is a tier below those guys coming in.

Definitely possible since the champ got 3rd when Schlatter won the next year, but Spencer was capable of winning 125 by his sophomore year in high school.

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4 minutes ago, Mokoma said:

Yeah maybe me saying it was fairly weak is an exaggeration, but I still believe using future results is a bad way to compare weight classes.  Obviously a senior year Burroughs would have destroyed anyone in that weight class.

But if future results count, then once Lee, Rivera and Suriano are done, then 125 will have quite a few more AA’s, finalists and has a chance to at least tie or pass in championships as well.

 

Future results are NECESSARY when you have guys like Metcalf and Schlatter who were at THEIR BEST right when they started, but without the overall AA numbers the weight class doesn't get the ranking it deserves.  The 2008 149 bracket was as deep with TOP END talent as any weight has been and the ONLY way to show that was to see how they all did, not only before and during, but after.

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