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What’s a takedown?

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Has the takedown in wrestling become the ‘catch’ in the NFL? It seems to be less and less clear what constitutes a takedown. Certainly a a reaction to NCAA takedown controversies.

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For fans, we are completely biased when it comes to a takedown.  Our guy always gets the two!  For refs, I also think they have some bias towards the better wrestler or more admonishing coach.  I bet they cringe every time they see that challenge brick tossed.  The criteria is pretty clear, but I think some fans hold on to some of yesteryear's and get confused.  

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For me there are two issues which kind of fight each other in practice even though they are easily definable on paper, no reaction time and control. How on Earth do you show actual definable control if you do not allow for some reaction time? That's been my big issue with these "flash" take-downs since they implemented the no reaction time rule. 

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33 minutes ago, Zebra said:

For me there are two issues which kind of fight each other in practice even though they are easily definable on paper, no reaction time and control.

It's easy to give a conceptual definition of control.  It's not so easy to give a definition of control such that any two people can apply it to an arbitrary situation in wrestling and arrive at the same result.

33 minutes ago, Zebra said:

How on Earth do you show actual definable control if you do not allow for some reaction time?

I think that isn't so hard (though whether it's a good idea is a different question).  Take a photograph.  If the wrestlers stayed in exactly that position for, say, 20 seconds, would it be control?

Edited by Ray Brinzer
Adding additional quote for clarity.

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The only situation where there is no reaction time on a takedown is when a wrestler has standing neutral control of their opponent and a hand touches. Every other instance requires control beyond reaction time. From the rulebook:

Section 2. Takedowns Art. 1. Match Takedowns. A takedown shall be awarded when, from the neutral position, a competitor gains control by taking the opponent down to the mat in bounds beyond reaction. Exception: Rule 4.2.2 

Art. 2. Hand-Touch Takedown. To award a takedown, reaction time is not required in instances in which a wrestler has standing neutral control of their opponent and the defending wrestler's hand comes in contact with the mat. (See illustrations)

Art. 3. Neutral Danger Zone Takedown. When in the neutral position, the referee shall announce a neutral danger signal (NDS) anytime a wrestler exposes their shoulders to the mat at any angle less than 90 degrees (neutral danger zone). The danger zone utilizes near fall criteria outlined in Rule 4.5.1, but replaces 45 degrees with any angle less than 90 degrees. The NDS announcement shall occur anytime a wrestler is voluntarily or involuntarily in the neutral danger zone, beyond reaction time, and will continue until the wrestler is out of the danger zone or a takedown is awarded. 

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46 minutes ago, AlexSteenTOM said:

Art. 2. Hand-Touch Takedown. To award a takedown, reaction time is not required in instances in which a wrestler has standing neutral control of their opponent and the defending wrestler's hand comes in contact with the mat. (See illustrations)

Rear standing is a reversal, but not a takedown.  Rear standing on the feet is also the only situation that can result in a flash takedown, when one hand touches the ground.  Specific rules for this position cause a lot of confusion.  Are they needed?

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There were a lot of questionable takedowns this year at NCAAs, that's for sure. That Yianni match had 2 or 3 of them. I like Yianni quite a bit, but I think he probably should've lost that match if it had been called properly. I read about another spectator who said the takedowns were called wrong, but they ended up with the right score somehow, lol. Sounds about right.

Edited by TobusRex

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When I wrestled it was 3 contact points with the floor if the offensive guy had his hands locked from behind. Of course he immediately had to unlock the hands after getting the takedown. I read earlier that in "danger" positions that once one wrestler has been exposed to 2pt NF conditions for 2 seconds that the other guy is awarded a 2 pt takedown no matter the position, which I kinda like.

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23 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

When I wrestled it was 3 contact points with the floor if the offensive guy had his hands locked from behind.

So:  I hit a head-inside single.  You sprawl.  I post, knee-slide, and pop you up.  Upside-down, and fully off the mat, you lock around my waist.  I have both legs on the mat, from the knees down, and one hand posted. That's three contact points with the floor, and your hands are locked from behind.  Takedown?

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31 minutes ago, Zebra said:

This is a couple years old but a prime example of what I find frustrating about how things have been applied. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mAREMvtWEA

I believe 2014-15 was the one year (it may have been 2) where they eliminated reaction time completely for takedowns. It led to nonsense like this which is why it quickly changed back. Under the current rules, that is not a takedown, but it was then.

 

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8 minutes ago, AlexSteenTOM said:

I believe 2014-15 was the one year (it may have been 2) where they eliminated reaction time completely for takedowns. It led to nonsense like this which is why it quickly changed back. Under the current rules, that is not a takedown, but it was then.

 

Ever since I hung up my stripes I have not been as in-tune to the rules, especially the subtle changes at the college level. 

 

Thanks for the explination. I may be rescinding at least a part of my frustrated comments, I just am not sure which. 

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7 hours ago, Ray Brinzer said:

So:  I hit a head-inside single.  You sprawl.  I post, knee-slide, and pop you up.  Upside-down, and fully off the mat, you lock around my waist.  I have both legs on the mat, from the knees down, and one hand posted. That's three contact points with the floor, and your hands are locked from behind.  Takedown?

Technically I guess it would be a takedown from my description.

 

A picture would be better. 

Edited by TobusRex

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Does the reaction time start from the instant takedown criteria have been met, or from the moment the ref signals a takedown? If the offensive wrestler THINKS he has a takedown and releases his locked hands in order to avoid a penalty, does that allow the defensive wrestler to react more effectively? The instantaneous nature of the transition from neutral to control and the different rules that apply seems problematic.

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On 3/27/2019 at 1:53 PM, TobusRex said:

There were a lot of questionable takedowns this year at NCAAs, that's for sure. That Yianni match had 2 or 3 of them. I like Yianni quite a bit, but I think he probably should've lost that match if it had been called properly. I read about another spectator who said the takedowns were called wrong, but they ended up with the right score somehow, lol. Sounds about right.

Why losing the match? Yianny had the takedown and maybe 2 near fall points that were never called, and the TD which was not a TD. I can't say that match would play the same if Yianni scored that first TD, but nothing brings me to the conclusion that he would probably lose the match if they were called properly, he would actually be ahead on the score at that moment.

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On 3/27/2019 at 10:27 AM, Zebra said:

For me there are two issues which kind of fight each other in practice even though they are easily definable on paper, no reaction time and control. How on Earth do you show actual definable control if you do not allow for some reaction time? That's been my big issue with these "flash" take-downs since they implemented the no reaction time rule. 

Reaction time exists in every situation except two:

1. Rear Standing Hand Touch Takedown (both wrestlers must be on their feet when one wrestler gains rear standing control and a hand touch occurs)

2. Locked Hands while on the mat

Other than those two situations, reaction time applies.

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7 hours ago, Axe_Spartan said:

Why losing the match? Yianny had the takedown and maybe 2 near fall points that were never called, and the TD which was not a TD. I can't say that match would play the same if Yianni scored that first TD, but nothing brings me to the conclusion that he would probably lose the match if they were called properly, he would actually be ahead on the score at that moment.

I know what you are talking about, but I didn't think Yianni had control at all one that, although he did expose the other guy for less than a second.

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Yeah there needs to be clarity for sure. The 2 in the yianni match and the Nolf/Hidlay one were super frustrating because no one seemed to know what the correct call was.

 

Also-they needed to show the replays in the arena when it comes to review. For Nolf, we all thought the challenge was that time ran out and that’s why there was no takedown. Also, like in the NFL, it would be somewhat helpful if there was an explanation to the fans watching. 

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For me, the big issue in Yianni-McKenna is that Yianni wasn't stepping over with a seatbelt. He was stepping over with a whizzer. It's very standard to give the 2 when you get a far side leg in stepping over with a seatbelt, but Yianni didn't have that. Stepping over with a whizzer is a completely different position, but the official treated it as the same. We saw the difference with how easily McKenna was able to knock Yianni off. Those positions should not be officiated identically. Nobody ever steps over with a whizzer like that, so I don't know if the official really knew what he was looking at.

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