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Jimmy Cinnabon

Suriano's headgear grab definitely stopped Fix

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2 hours ago, teach said:

If his hair was shorter you could tell.  With the bushy hair it is hard to tell if the fingers are around the head gear?

His fingers are either curled behind the head gear or the poor kid has been wrestling with nubs his whole life. 

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You didn't see HIdlay's takedown against Nolf taken away?

And pointing out a flawed strategy comes down to this:  if he had actually scored a takedown beforehand the bout would not have come down to a controversial call, which you admit happens with great frequency.  Basically, bad calls are a part of the game--as a coach and as a competitor, it's part of your mission to do all in your power to make sure a bout doesn't come down to a bad call.  Not an easy task; even harder when you make no offensive attempts from neutral and put all your money on winning by a counter or receiving a favorable call (like a bogus hands-to-the-face gift).

And it has nothing to do with defending refs.  In my view, they're as good/bad and biased/unbiased as they've always been.  

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I honestly do think the hand on the head gear prevented Fix from coming around on Suriano.  If you watch the actual video of the match you can tell that Fix’s head is being pushed down because of the hand around his head gear.  Plus you can tell from the pics that Suriano’s fingers are wrapped around the gear, Like Idaho said, if they are not wrapped around then he has been wrestling with nubs his whole life.  They are clearly around the head gear.

With that being said, I agree with all of the other posters that Fix needed to try and generate more offense during the first 7 minutes of the match or don’t let Suriano escape with 6 seconds left in OT.

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20 hours ago, Coach_J said:

Not making any attempt to mount a real offense in neutral stopped him more than the alleged headgear grab (and the non-existent hands to the face).  And for the record, I wanted Fix to win.

 Agreed. But the headgear grab was not alleged, that bad boy occurred.

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1 hour ago, Coach_J said:

You didn't see HIdlay's takedown against Nolf taken away?

And pointing out a flawed strategy comes down to this:  if he had actually scored a takedown beforehand the bout would not have come down to a controversial call, which you admit happens with great frequency.  Basically, bad calls are a part of the game--as a coach and as a competitor, it's part of your mission to do all in your power to make sure a bout doesn't come down to a bad call.  Not an easy task; even harder when you make no offensive attempts from neutral and put all your money on winning by a counter or receiving a favorable call (like a bogus hands-to-the-face gift).

And it has nothing to do with defending refs.  In my view, they're as good/bad and biased/unbiased as they've always been.  

i dont disagree, his strategy was flawed

and you can't count on officials/reviews as this tourney has abundantly proven.

however, with the tech we have, this should have been an easy fix.

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17 minutes ago, D3UC157 said:

 Agreed. But the headgear grab was not alleged, that bad boy occurred.

No major disagreement, but stand by the belief that it was not the major factor in why Fix did not win the national title as some have argued.

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1 hour ago, MrDream said:

An official missed a call that potentially cost a kid a shot at winning the match....color me shocked. 

 

I do find it comical that on a thread devoted to understanding if the official missed a call, people point out Fix and Smith's strategy.....like how does that have anything to do with Suriano grabbing the head gear? Those two points are separate....both are valid.....but separate. It's almost like wrestling fans want to protect the integrity of the officials so bad that they will degrade a strategy by a coach/wrestler to defend the officials call/lack of call. 

 

During NCAA's I didn't see one challenge overturned (There may have been some, but I saw exponentially more confirm the refs call than overturned).....when is the NCAA going to implement another official to sit at the table and review the monitor without the on-mat officials just reviewing it? 

Do people really believe that the guy who just made the call (on-mat official) is going to change is mind at a REASONABLE rate when rewatching what he just saw??

Total Reviews = 127

Coaches Challenges = 96

Officials Review = 32

Calls Overturned = 27 / 127 = 21.25%

In other words, 1 out of every 5 reviews was changed.

This information is right on FloWrestling website.

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15 minutes ago, GockeS said:

i dont disagree, his strategy was flawed

and you can't count on officials/reviews as this tourney has abundantly proven.

however, with the tech we have, this should have been an easy fix.

Total Reviews = 127

Coaches Challenges = 96

Officials Review = 32

Calls Overturned = 27 / 127 = 21.25%

In other words, 1 out of every 5 reviews was changed.

This information is right on FloWrestling website.

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4 minutes ago, OfficialObserver said:

Total Reviews = 127

Coaches Challenges = 96

Officials Review = 32

Calls Overturned = 27 / 127 = 21.25%

In other words, 1 out of every 5 reviews was changed.

This information is right on FloWrestling website.

I would like to see the percentages broke down 1 more line....

% of overturn calls from Coach Challenges.......

% of overturn calls from Official Reviews....... 

 

Coach Challenges seem to be accounting for 75% of the total reviews....I would love to see the breakdown of how many of the reviews initiated by the coaches get overturned. 

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Just now, MrDream said:

I would like to see the percentages broke down 1 more line....

% of overturn calls from Coach Challenges.......

% of overturn calls from Official Reviews....... 

 

Coach Challenges seem to be accounting for 75% of the total reviews....I would love to see the breakdown of how many of the reviews initiated by the coaches get overturned. 

Unfortunately, that information hasn't been posted at this point and I'm not sure if it will be. That would be nice to see, though, I agree.

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13 minutes ago, OfficialObserver said:

Total Reviews = 127

Coaches Challenges = 96

Officials Review = 32

Calls Overturned = 27 / 127 = 21.25%

In other words, 1 out of every 5 reviews was changed.

This information is right on FloWrestling website.

Interesting, thanks for sharing.   I didn't watch everything but honestly the only overturn I recall seeing was Nolf/Hidlay.

I wonder if the numbers above include things like removing 1 second from Cassar's riding time against Steveson.

Edited by 1032004

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28 minutes ago, MrDream said:

I would like to see the percentages broke down 1 more line....

% of overturn calls from Coach Challenges.......

% of overturn calls from Official Reviews....... 

 

Coach Challenges seem to be accounting for 75% of the total reviews....I would love to see the breakdown of how many of the reviews initiated by the coaches get overturned. 

According to FRL  at about 1:21:30, they also quoted the 27 overturned calls out of 127 challenges.  One of them later also said:

11 out of 93 coaches challenges overturned and half of official reviews were overturned

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, MrDream said:

Thanks for the information!

So it seems that Coaches are only getting about 12% of the bricks they throw overturned. Maybe this should be addressed.....12% is very low. 

But what might be the problem?

A. The refs are aware that they weren't sure so more likely to be overturned?

B. The coaches are more often wrong in their assessment?

C. The coaches are throwing the brick for a break or just because they can?

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2 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

But what might be the problem?

A. The refs are aware that they weren't sure so more likely to be overturned?

B. The coaches are more often wrong in their assessment?

C. The coaches are throwing the brick for a break or just because they can?

All of those are plausible and more than likely the case....but a 12% correct rate for coaches seems a bit low to me. I would much rather have a 3rd ref at the table to looks at the tape alone without the interference/advice from the mat officials. 

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38 minutes ago, MrDream said:

Thanks for the information!

So it seems that Coaches are only getting about 12% of the bricks they throw overturned. Maybe this should be addressed.....12% is very low. 

Or the coaches are wrong 88% of the time?

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6 minutes ago, teach said:

Or the coaches are wrong 88% of the time?

I'm going to have to go with the under on the coaches being wrong 88% of the time. Even if you believe they are wrong 75% of the time, their correct percentage increases 110%!

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A grab is illegal if is prevents Fix from moving his head - seen it called many times.  The reviews seem somewhat worthless if they didn't see that, it was pretty obvious.  That said, I was rooting for Fix, and he didn't want to engage and/or  attack the entire match.  I don't know how he thought he would win a national title like that, but he paid for it in the end.

Edited by WRfan1

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8 hours ago, Coach_J said:

No major disagreement, but stand by the belief that it was not the major factor in why Fix did not win the national title as some have argued.

Yes and no. He was certainly out-wrestled by Suriano but as they were in SV and a headgear grab is a technical violation, by rule, he should have won. I don’t think it would have been a win based on merit. Nor would the optics been good. But by the rule book, Fix wins.

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22 minutes ago, D3UC157 said:

Yes and no. He was certainly out-wrestled by Suriano but as they were in SV and a headgear grab is a technical violation, by rule, he should have won. I don’t think it would have been a win based on merit. Nor would the optics been good. But by the rule book, Fix wins.

It would have been winning on a technical violation by rule, but in a materially different way than winning on a hands to the face technical violation, like in their dual meet at Rutgers. 

The latter violation had zero effect on their dual meet match.  It was a pure "gotcha" moment, the ultimate in a technical violation not related to the merits of any wrestling move.

But the headgear grab on Saturday night was not a "gotcha" thing that didn't affect the action. The still pics, and the video if you watch it, showed that the grab illegally stopped a well executed slide by that I think was, much more likely than not, going to produce a takedown without the headgear grab.

I think this is hard to dispute. I also think the other strand in the comments above -- about Fix doing very little for the entire time the wrestlers were on their feet for the first seven minutes, and the danger of wrestling passively and then relying on the refs (particularly given the performance of the refs in Pittsburgh!) -- is well taken.

Even more to the point, Fix having stopped wrestling to protest the call, and then being easily taken down as a result, was pretty amazing. It definitely looked like he would not have been taken down if he had just kept wrestling. 

The question then becomes (and I don't know the answer) whether his stopping wrestling was just a purely natural reaction that others not from OSU in the same situation would have done; or whether the OSU trigger-happy approach of trying to get technical violation calls was so extreme and pervasive that it infected his decision making on the mat, and caused him to make an error in judgment that cost him the match. 

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11 hours ago, teach said:

Or the coaches are wrong 88% of the time?

You can't take the coach's word,. Not that they are untrustworthy, but a coach has an AGENDA to try to help his wrestler win. Coaches will bitch and moan continuously to get the calls that benefit their wrestler, even if it's a grey area.

And yes, they are wrong 88% of the time :D

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