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Suriano's headgear grab definitely stopped Fix

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22 hours ago, Coach_J said:

Fix could have been using the hand he was grabbing his own headgear with to actually throw a damn whizzer and get his hips up.  I like Fix because of his freestyle accomplishments and what I think he can do internationally in the future and I was pulling for him.  That said, he simply didn't open up and earn the W in this bout.  

My thoughts exactly 

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17 hours ago, MrDream said:

Thanks for the information!

So it seems that Coaches are only getting about 12% of the bricks they throw overturned. Maybe this should be addressed.....12% is very low. 

You would have to also remove the challenges where the coaches are obviously trying to get breathers for their guys to get a real idea of the legitimate overturn rate.

23 hours ago, Coach_J said:

Fix could have been using the hand he was grabbing his own headgear with to actually throw a damn whizzer and get his hips up.  I like Fix because of his freestyle accomplishments and what I think he can do internationally in the future and I was pulling for him.  That said, he simply didn't open up and earn the W in this bout.  

It seems like a lot of people are conceding that there was a headgear grab but just don't care because Fix didn't "earn" the win, and felt he was trying to steal the win (again?) on a penalty point.

Yes, his match strategy was awful, he should have kept wrestling after the infraction, and should have attempted some offense. The same can be said about Suriano not "earning" the win, as he didn't do anything throughout the match either. It was another terrible match between the two and we would all be better off if they never wrestled again. But Suriano definitely had a solid grip on the headgear. Very reminiscent of how Mark Hall beat Valencia two years ago. I wasn't happy to see Hall win on that penalty point when Zahid was the one attempting offense, but the right call was made in that instance. They missed it here.

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Please don't put words in my mouth.  Never said I "don't care" about grasping the headgear; what I have said is that it was not the main reason he didn't win the bout.  Missed call?  Seems to be evidence of that.  Was that a bigger factor in his loss than not mounting any neutral offense the entire bout?  Don't think so.  And who's to assume Fix finishes the slide-by if Suriano didn't grab the headgear but merely posted against the head?  It's possible, but I don't think it's a 100% certainty, particularly from a wrestler who was more focused on not giving up a takedown rather than aggressively trying to make one happen.

Think of it from a coaching perspective--what do you do to prepare your athlete so this doesn't happen again?  Focus on generating some type of takedown strategy, or better selling a grasping the headgear call?  Or from the combatant's strategy--work on creating set ups that lead to takedowns, or wrestling the same exact kind of bout but look for better ways to generate penalty points against your opponent?

Bad calls happen.  That's life.  Sometimes when a guy is wrestling the match of his life and he gets screwed, yes, that decides the match.  I just don't believe that's the correct analysis here.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Crotalus said:

You would have to also remove the challenges where the coaches are obviously trying to get breathers for their guys to get a real idea of the legitimate overturn rate.

It seems like a lot of people are conceding that there was a headgear grab but just don't care because Fix didn't "earn" the win, and felt he was trying to steal the win (again?) on a penalty point.

Yes, his match strategy was awful, he should have kept wrestling after the infraction, and should have attempted some offense. The same can be said about Suriano not "earning" the win, as he didn't do anything throughout the match either. It was another terrible match between the two and we would all be better off if they never wrestled again. But Suriano definitely had a solid grip on the headgear. Very reminiscent of how Mark Hall beat Valencia two years ago. I wasn't happy to see Hall win on that penalty point when Zahid was the one attempting offense, but the right call was made in that instance. They missed it here.

Right on the money 

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2 hours ago, Coach_J said:

Please don't put words in my mouth.  Never said I "don't care" about grasping the headgear; what I have said is that it was not the main reason he didn't win the bout.  Missed call?  Seems to be evidence of that.  Was that a bigger factor in his loss than not mounting any neutral offense the entire bout?  Don't think so.  And who's to assume Fix finishes the slide-by if Suriano didn't grab the headgear but merely posted against the head?  It's possible, but I don't think it's a 100% certainty, particularly from a wrestler who was more focused on not giving up a takedown rather than aggressively trying to make one happen.

Think of it from a coaching perspective--what do you do to prepare your athlete so this doesn't happen again?  Focus on generating some type of takedown strategy, or better selling a grasping the headgear call?  Or from the combatant's strategy--work on creating set ups that lead to takedowns, or wrestling the same exact kind of bout but look for better ways to generate penalty points against your opponent?

Bad calls happen.  That's life.  Sometimes when a guy is wrestling the match of his life and he gets screwed, yes, that decides the match.  I just don't believe that's the correct analysis here.

 

 

I'll admit that I just pulled your post out of many that seemed to not really care that the headgear was grabbed. I actually agree with most everything you are saying here. I think it is probably unlikely that Fix get a TD off the slide-by, but if the penalty was called, it would have given Fix a point that would have won him the match. So I do think that was a bigger factor in the match, given the way it played out. I am not a fan of guys winning on penalty points, just pointing out what I believe the right call would have been and that a lot of the post in this thread seem to imply that Fix didn't deserve the call because he didn't "earn" the win.

Whether Fix did enough in that match to deserve to be an NCAA champion can be independent from whether an infraction occurred. I won't argue that Fix was robbed, as he was trying to win the match by various penalty points, but the headgear pull seemed cut and dry.

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1 minute ago, Crotalus said:

I'll admit that I just pulled your post out of many that seemed to not really care that the headgear was grabbed. I actually agree with most everything you are saying here. I think it is probably unlikely that Fix get a TD off the slide-by, but if the penalty was called, it would have given Fix a point that would have won him the match. So I do think that was a bigger factor in the match, given the way it played out. I am not a fan of guys winning on penalty points, just pointing out what I believe the right call would have been and that a lot of the post in this thread seem to imply that Fix didn't deserve the call because he didn't "earn" the win.

Whether Fix did enough in that match to deserve to be an NCAA champion can be independent from whether an infraction occurred. I won't argue that Fix was robbed, as he was trying to win the match by various penalty points, but the headgear pull seemed cut and dry.

Grabbed more than pulled.   The announcers made it sound like it needed to be pulled down to be an infraction.   Im surprised no one put what the actual rule says on this

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34 minutes ago, ScarletKnight said:

Grabbed more than pulled.   The announcers made it sound like it needed to be pulled down to be an infraction.   Im surprised no one put what the actual rule says on this

It would be nice to see the actual rule, but it seems clear in the video and stills that he uses it to control Fix's head. We've all worn headgear before, so it is pretty easy to realize that having a hand wrapped around the headgear gives the guy pretty good leverage. The announcers we arguing that Suriano was posting on the headgear, not pulling it. But once Fix turned parallel to Suriano during the slide by attempt, Suriano was pulling the headgear away to keep Fix from getting behind. In the sequence you posted, photos 3-7 show this well, and you can see the strain on Fix's neck. You are not controlling a guy's head like that in that position if you don't have a hold of the headgear. It allows Suriano to get back into a defensible position and then he scores once Fix decides to give up and argue for the call.

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12 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

It would be nice to see the actual rule, but it seems clear in the video and stills that he uses it to control Fix's head. We've all worn headgear before, so it is pretty easy to realize that having a hand wrapped around the headgear gives the guy pretty good leverage. The announcers we arguing that Suriano was posting on the headgear, not pulling it. But once Fix turned parallel to Suriano during the slide by attempt, Suriano was pulling the headgear away to keep Fix from getting behind. In the sequence you posted, photos 3-7 show this well, and you can see the strain on Fix's neck. You are not controlling a guy's head like that in that position if you don't have a hold of the headgear. It allows Suriano to get back into a defensible position and then he scores once Fix decides to give up and argue for the call.

I can agree, if you post on a head he can move his head and change your angle or clear it.  But if you grip the top of it, you can't clear it by moving your body or moving your head. 

I'm just repeating what Tim Johnson said, that he grabbed it but he didn't pull down on it and he seemed to think that made it ok.   

 

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2 hours ago, ScarletKnight said:

I can agree, if you post on a head he can move his head and change your angle or clear it.  But if you grip the top of it, you can't clear it by moving your body or moving your head. 

I'm just repeating what Tim Johnson said, that he grabbed it but he didn't pull down on it and he seemed to think that made it ok.   

 

That's what Johnson said but I think he's wrong.

I looked for the rule before posting earlier and couldn't find rhe actual verbatim rule. But several summaries and synopses I found used the verb "grab" for clothing and headgear as a prohibited act. 

I also don't see how the rule couldn't prohibit a grab. It can't make sense that one guy can grab and hold the other's headgear in the way that happened here. Otherwise you could build match strategy around that, right? Just grab and hold the headgear to stop your opponent's movement. 

I would think that you can truly push and post the headgear, without grabbing the headgear, just as you can the head itself.  But you can't grab and clasp the headgear just like you can't grab and clasp someone's hair. That's got to be correct, I think.

I thought Fix was going to score without it although some above disagree with that. Regardless the rule is there to resolve that uncertainty.  Unlike hands to the face calls which usually don't have anything to do with thwarting a scoring move. 

None of this is meant to detract from the heart that Suriano showed in overcoming two years of adversity (injuries and transfer); in avenging this year's losses in March; in controlling the mat in neutral in the final; and in escaping from a great rider in a short time restart (after a helpful stalemate call that often gets made in overtime) in a highest pressure situation. 

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10 hours ago, drag it said:

That's what Johnson said but I think he's wrong.

I looked for the rule before posting earlier and couldn't find rhe actual verbatim rule. But several summaries and synopses I found used the verb "grab" for clothing and headgear as a prohibited act. 

I also don't see how the rule couldn't prohibit a grab. It can't make sense that one guy can grab and hold the other's headgear in the way that happened here. Otherwise you could build match strategy around that, right? Just grab and hold the headgear to stop your opponent's movement. 

I would think that you can truly push and post the headgear, without grabbing the headgear, just as you can the head itself.  But you can't grab and clasp the headgear just like you can't grab and clasp someone's hair. That's got to be correct, I think.

I thought Fix was going to score without it although some above disagree with that. Regardless the rule is there to resolve that uncertainty.  Unlike hands to the face calls which usually don't have anything to do with thwarting a scoring move. 

None of this is meant to detract from the heart that Suriano showed in overcoming two years of adversity (injuries and transfer); in avenging this year's losses in March; in controlling the mat in neutral in the final; and in escaping from a great rider in a short time restart (after a helpful stalemate call that often gets made in overtime) in a highest pressure situation. 

I'm going to say it falls under the precise wording in the rulebook, which is Rule 3, Article 13, Section 4.  It reads, "The mat-side video review process operates under the assumption that the ruling on the mat is correct, and only when there is indisputable video evidence that a ruling was incorrect will a call be changed. Absent that evidence, the original ruling stands."  To me, the phrase "only when there is indisputable video evidence that a ruling was incorrect will a call be changed" is what made all the difference.

The call on the mat, was no call - no violation by Suriano.  The photos clearly show that his hand is on the headgear, but that, on its own, is not a violation.  It has to be gripping it, pulling it, using it, etc.  Common sense tells us, and the refs, that this happened.  But the video evidence does not.  Fix's headgear doesn't shift, his hair does give plausibility for Suriano's apparently stubby fingers, a strap never gets pulled by a finger, etc.

I fully believe, like pretty much everyone here, Suriano had a violation here.  But the evidence was not indisputable.  Remember, that means the refs have to watch it and go "Yeah, we 100% got that call wrong."  If there's any room for debate, it's not indisputable.  And this thread has shown that there's multiple points of debate.  We mostly all agree on them, and I bet the refs did too, but since it was not absolutely conclusive, they did their jobs and left the call as it was made on the mat.

And that is where I, who had zero dog in the fight, absolutely hated the way Fix finished that.  Defend for that tiny bit of time left, then call out the headgear violation to coaches/refs.  If he knows enough to know it's a violation, he knows enough to know the call on the mat stands if replay is inconclusive.  Seems like he had a mental lapse on the latter part, which is unfortunate for him.  Hate to see a match like that end in controversy, but it was going to either way with that finish.  And that's a shame - just like Hall/Valencia in '17.

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I agree that the coaches were focused too much on a ref's help. Wrestling never used to be this refined. This isn't a tennis ball on a chalk line. There are too many variables and nuances in wrestling and to refine it down to a split second slo-mo repay is breaking something that was once perfect. Suriano won that match fair and square. He didn't tug on the headgear. The headgear is in the way sometimes from what naturally would be a push/control situation.

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The ref missed it, but it should have never been reviewed.  Ok State did not have a challenge.  Smith should have saved a challenge for something more important than an alleged hand to the face early on and the double 4 point nf to try and get the extra 1/2 team point for the tech fall.

I do not see how the ref could miss the call, review it without a challenge brick from Smith and then take that 2 away from Suriano and give a penalty point to Fix and the win.

I just don't think that call gets reviewed without a challenge brick by most coaches other the Cael, Smith, Ryan and Brands

 

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7 hours ago, nightcrawler said:

I'm going to say it falls under the precise wording in the rulebook, which is Rule 3, Article 13, Section 4.  It reads, "The mat-side video review process operates under the assumption that the ruling on the mat is correct, and only when there is indisputable video evidence that a ruling was incorrect will a call be changed. Absent that evidence, the original ruling stands."  To me, the phrase "only when there is indisputable video evidence that a ruling was incorrect will a call be changed" is what made all the difference.

The call on the mat, was no call - no violation by Suriano.  The photos clearly show that his hand is on the headgear, but that, on its own, is not a violation.  It has to be gripping it, pulling it, using it, etc.  Common sense tells us, and the refs, that this happened.  But the video evidence does not.  Fix's headgear doesn't shift, his hair does give plausibility for Suriano's apparently stubby fingers, a strap never gets pulled by a finger, etc.

I fully believe, like pretty much everyone here, Suriano had a violation here.  But the evidence was not indisputable.  Remember, that means the refs have to watch it and go "Yeah, we 100% got that call wrong."  If there's any room for debate, it's not indisputable.  And this thread has shown that there's multiple points of debate.  We mostly all agree on them, and I bet the refs did too, but since it was not absolutely conclusive, they did their jobs and left the call as it was made on the mat.

And that is where I, who had zero dog in the fight, absolutely hated the way Fix finished that.  Defend for that tiny bit of time left, then call out the headgear violation to coaches/refs.  If he knows enough to know it's a violation, he knows enough to know the call on the mat stands if replay is inconclusive.  Seems like he had a mental lapse on the latter part, which is unfortunate for him.  Hate to see a match like that end in controversy, but it was going to either way with that finish.  And that's a shame - just like Hall/Valencia in '17.

Agree with your last paragraph.  Agree to disagree with your first two paragraphs.

The video (as opposed to the stills), at least the ESPN camera (not positive what the refs saw) to me is indisputable.  Go to 17:00 mark.  

I don't see how you can watch the replay starting at 17:00, and not conclude that he grabbed the headgear.  Grabbing, as I understand it, is the rule (as I discussed above).

I think it's indisputable  Suriano grabbed the headgear.  The video between 17:05-17:11 shows a pronounced grab and release sequence, including  Suriano's hand gripping/flexing at around 17:05 and ungripping/unflexing at around 17:11. 

Fix's hair does obstruct  the view of the fingertips, but the video demonstrates through motion, in a way that it is not necessarily indisputable in the still pictures, that the headgear was clearly grabbed.  

This is not the crime of the century. The refs blew a great number of very important calls throughout the tournament (Hidlay indisputably didn't have a takedown?!?!).  It's hard to do a review under time pressure instead of on your computer at home a week after the final.  Fix could and should have done a lot of things to win the match before this, and really screwed up when he stopped wrestling to protest the headgear grab.  Suriano showed a ton of heart getting to the finals and then controlled pace throughout the finals match in neutral. 

But if you're going to have replay (which I think at least in the current system, without independent review, they shouldn't; it's definitely not worth the interruptions in action to get such bad results), and you're going to review this call (despite the fact that OSU had no challenges due to their screwing up by wasting their challenges on the silly hands to the face, and also a silly back points challenge in a first round blowout), then my opinion is that this is an indisputable headgear grab -- and one that materially affected the action by stopping in its tracks what looked like a good Fix slide-by.

 

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2 hours ago, buf87 said:

The ref missed it, but it should have never been reviewed.  Ok State did not have a challenge.  Smith should have saved a challenge for something more important than an alleged hand to the face early on and the double 4 point nf to try and get the extra 1/2 team point for the tech fall.

I do not see how the ref could miss the call, review it without a challenge brick from Smith and then take that 2 away from Suriano and give a penalty point to Fix and the win.

I just don't think that call gets reviewed without a challenge brick by most coaches other the Cael, Smith, Ryan and Brands

 

That first round bonus half-point challenge was a real head scratcher.

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It is obvious and inarguable that there is no infraction.  Proof positive:   

  1. Suriano is National Champ - I saw them raise his hand. 
  2. The trophy is in New Brunswick (or Paramus by now).  Definitely in New Jersey.
  3. I heard the bell ringing in Old Queens. 

All of the above are indisputable.   Quit bitching and moaning;  give the kid his due.   Whining @#$%^&*()s

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On 3/29/2019 at 4:57 PM, drag it said:

I looked for the rule before posting earlier and couldn't find rhe actual verbatim rule. But several summaries and synopses I found used the verb "grab" for clothing and headgear as a prohibited act. 

I also don't see how the rule couldn't prohibit a grab. It can't make sense that one guy can grab and hold the other's headgear in the way that happened here. Otherwise you could build match strategy around that, right? Just grab and hold the headgear to stop your opponent's movement. 

I would think that you can truly push and post the headgear, without grabbing the headgear, just as you can the head itself.  But you can't grab and clasp the headgear just like you can't grab and clasp someone's hair. That's got to be correct, I think.

Found the rule we're all curious about! 
Rule 5, Section 8, Article 7; Grasping Clothing or Equipment. "Grasping of clothing, the mat, equipment or ear protection by a competitor is a technical violation. Any action after this technical violation is considered dead time."

You are definitely correct in saying and thinking you can push and post just fine - the actual grabbing is the penalty.

On 3/30/2019 at 12:07 PM, drag it said:

I don't see how you can watch the replay starting at 17:00, and not conclude that he grabbed the headgear.  Grabbing, as I understand it, is the rule (as I discussed above).

I think it's indisputable  Suriano grabbed the headgear.  The video between 17:05-17:11 shows a pronounced grab and release sequence, including  Suriano's hand gripping/flexing at around 17:05 and ungripping/unflexing at around 17:11. 

On 3/30/2019 at 12:07 PM, drag it said:

Fix's hair does obstruct  the view of the fingertips, but the video demonstrates through motion, in a way that it is not necessarily indisputable in the still pictures, that the headgear was clearly grabbed.  

I was actually thinking about the hand flexing, but was relying only on the still photos and didn't re-watch the video at the time.  Glad you posted it - and you're right on with what I was thinking, his hands can tell you if they were placing/posting or grabbing.  Like you said, it's clear that the video makes it clear in a way that photos don't.  They got the call wrong.

I also can't understand why they wouldn't overturn it.  I may just be being optimistic, which is not in my nature, but I don't think it's a pride issue.  You're going to get flack either way, at least making the correct call helps you to save face.  

On 3/30/2019 at 12:07 PM, drag it said:

This is not the crime of the century. The refs blew a great number of very important calls throughout the tournament (Hidlay indisputably didn't have a takedown?!?!).  It's hard to do a review under time pressure instead of on your computer at home a week after the final.  Fix could and should have done a lot of things to win the match before this, and really screwed up when he stopped wrestling to protest the headgear grab.  Suriano showed a ton of heart getting to the finals and then controlled pace throughout the finals match in neutral. 

But if you're going to have replay (which I think at least in the current system, without independent review, they shouldn't; it's definitely not worth the interruptions in action to get such bad results), and you're going to review this call (despite the fact that OSU had no challenges due to their screwing up by wasting their challenges on the silly hands to the face, and also a silly back points challenge in a first round blowout), then my opinion is that this is an indisputable headgear grab -- and one that materially affected the action by stopping in its tracks what looked like a good Fix slide-by.

Well said, particularly the second half of the first paragraph.  Put it much better than I could have.

Overall, you are just spot on here.  I support a replay system but this has glaring flaws. OSU challenging when there were none left... how did that get overlooked?  It legitimately baffles me.  Hidlay?  Same.  I admit I wanted Nolf, but no one can say that it was indisputable that there was not a takedown... except the referees.  Even Nolf said he thought it was a takedown.

I think one simple, possibly time-saving change to the replay system that would GREATLY improve it would be that calls are reviewed by a third party.  Someone else mentioned that too.  People don't like admitting when they're wrong, even with evidence.  That eliminates that issue.  There's a reason most major sports leagues do it that way.  But the NCAA is gonna NCAA.  EDIT: One thing I do like is that the refs can and do initiate reviews on their own when they're not sure. I give refs credit for saying they want to take another look to make sure they can make the right call - positioning, pace, etc. make it literally impossible to see everything for refs at times.

Edited by nightcrawler
Clarification

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Thanks much for finding and posting the rule, which was really needed to close the circle on the discussion. 

With respect to the language, "grasping" seems to me an even lower standard than grabbing, and was met here.

Your speculating about what was really going on in the refs heads was interesting. Along those lines, I wonder if they were even less willing to overrule given that OSU shouldn't have been allowed to challenge anyway. Add that to the roar of approval in the arena for Suriano's apparent takedown, and there would have been a huge backlash in there for sure had they reversed.

I'm not holding my breath for this all to get better soon because, you nailed it:  NCAA gonna NCAA. 

And, actually, with apologies for changing the topic, if they were only going to do one thing this summer, I'd rather they fix the scoring table hazard than the replay system.  Someone is going to end up MFFing out or worse from a table collision.

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On 3/29/2019 at 4:57 PM, drag it said:

That's what Johnson said but I think he's wrong.

I looked for the rule before posting earlier and couldn't find rhe actual verbatim rule. But several summaries and synopses I found used the verb "grab" for clothing and headgear as a prohibited act. 

I also don't see how the rule couldn't prohibit a grab. It can't make sense that one guy can grab and hold the other's headgear in the way that happened here. Otherwise you could build match strategy around that, right? Just grab and hold the headgear to stop your opponent's movement. 

I would think that you can truly push and post the headgear, without grabbing the headgear, just as you can the head itself.  But you can't grab and clasp the headgear just like you can't grab and clasp someone's hair. That's got to be correct, I think.

I thought Fix was going to score without it although some above disagree with that. Regardless the rule is there to resolve that uncertainty.  Unlike hands to the face calls which usually don't have anything to do with thwarting a scoring move. 

None of this is meant to detract from the heart that Suriano showed in overcoming two years of adversity (injuries and transfer); in avenging this year's losses in March; in controlling the mat in neutral in the final; and in escaping from a great rider in a short time restart (after a helpful stalemate call that often gets made in overtime) in a highest pressure situation. 

Tim Johnson is, and has always been, one of the top announcers when it comes to lack of knowledge about the sport.  Here is the rule;  Art. 7. Grasping Clothing or Equipment. Grasping of clothing, the mat,  equipment or ear protection by a competitor is a technical violation.

Edit-sorry, should have read all the way through, someone had already posted.

 

Edited by smcfee
add info

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Reposting the rule was redundant but the Johnson opinion wasn't.  It's pretty bad when he provides analysis of a crucial match-deciding event and bases it on a false premise, but not particularly surprising.  

I'm also not crazy about his basic style -- for instance when he just data-dumps facts into sentences that aren't really on point and just end up badly distracting the viewer from what's going on in the action.   

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