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tommygun

Lose a challenge, lose a point

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1 minute ago, tommygun said:

Saw this in another thread.  Such a great idea.  If you challenge a call and lose, the challenging wrestler loses a point (not a team point).  Also, a third party must review during NCAA tournament. 

Still needs to be a limit on the challenges or it will be like freestyle where they challenge anything and everything in the last 30 seconds if you are losing.

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Saw this in another thread.  Such a great idea.  If you challenge a call and lose, the challenging wrestler loses a point (not a team point).  Also, a third party must review during NCAA tournament. 


Only way this works is if 3rd party reviews are implemented and they have the balls to overturn to the correct call. The worst scenario I could see is someone challenges a call which looks to be overturned and somehow even 3rd party doesn’t overturn it. Now your guy is almost double penalized. I guess you have to trust the system, I do however think it would eliminated a lot of these ticky tacky challenges we saw this year.


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I have a better solution, get rid of video review. It doesn't fit well with wrestling the subjective nature of wrestling, it is hard to implement without causing negative consequences, and it slows down the flow of matches.

The next best thing is the award a point to the opponent if the challenge is denied as @tommygun has posted.

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There are 3 problems with the current review system.

1. Camera angles are horrible- unlike the NFL or college football games there is usually only one angle and even for the NCAA finals it's not like ESPN has 15 cameras on the action.
2. Hard to have conclusive evidence- Much like football, it is harder to determine a takedown, reversal, etc with video review. It is much easier to see if a player stepped out of bounds, knee was down, or a ball crossed the goal line.
3. Referees reviewing their own calls- These guys are professionals and got to their positions by having a lot of pride in their work. It takes a lot to overturn a call, especially when you look at #1 and #2.

Having a third party review would be a little better, but the referees are all very close so it will still take a lot to over turn a call.

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19 minutes ago, Ching said:

I have a better solution, get rid of video review. It doesn't fit well with wrestling the subjective nature of wrestling, it is hard to implement without causing negative consequences, and it slows down the flow of matches.

The next best thing is the award a point to the opponent if the challenge is denied as @tommygun has posted.

I think limiting what can be challenged would be a good compromise. For example, Penalties should not be reviewable. 

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18 minutes ago, BobDole said:

There are 3 problems with the current review system.

1. Camera angles are horrible- unlike the NFL or college football games there is usually only one angle and even for the NCAA finals it's not like ESPN has 15 cameras on the action.
2. Hard to have conclusive evidence- Much like football, it is harder to determine a takedown, reversal, etc with video review. It is much easier to see if a player stepped out of bounds, knee was down, or a ball crossed the goal line.
3. Referees reviewing their own calls- These guys are professionals and got to their positions by having a lot of pride in their work. It takes a lot to overturn a call, especially when you look at #1 and #2.

Having a third party review would be a little better, but the referees are all very close so it will still take a lot to over turn a call.

I volunteer to be the 3rd party reviewer. I will be impartial usually 

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46 minutes ago, BobDole said:

Still needs to be a limit on the challenges or it will be like freestyle where they challenge anything and everything in the last 30 seconds if you are losing.

Agreed.  Use the international rule (lose challenge = point to opponent & a mat judge does the review), with a cap on team challenges. 

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1 hour ago, Ching said:

I have a better solution, get rid of video review. It doesn't fit well with wrestling the subjective nature of wrestling, it is hard to implement without causing negative consequences, and it slows down the flow of matches.

The next best thing is the award a point to the opponent if the challenge is denied as @tommygun has posted.

This.

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1 hour ago, Ching said:

I have a better solution, get rid of video review. It doesn't fit well with wrestling the subjective nature of wrestling, it is hard to implement without causing negative consequences, and it slows down the flow of matches.

The next best thing is the award a point to the opponent if the challenge is denied as @tommygun has posted.

I am pretty much at this point too. Watch a high school match and you walk away with the same amount of bad calls, maybe less. College review hasn't fixed anything.

Edited by russelscout

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3 hours ago, BobDole said:

There are 3 problems with the current review system.

1. Camera angles are horrible- unlike the NFL or college football games there is usually only one angle and even for the NCAA finals it's not like ESPN has 15 cameras on the action.

i agree, but they should use televised angles as well.

they did this for the finals.

if they are available. those angles should be used. 

i think every match had a camera on it, besides the matside one...b/c of th eevery match every mat philosophy.

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43 minutes ago, GockeS said:

i agree, but they should use televised angles as well.

they did this for the finals.

if they are available. those angles should be used. 

i think every match had a camera on it, besides the matside one...b/c of th eevery match every mat philosophy.

With the angles for the first three rounds they really wouldn't be much better. For the semi-finals there are a couple more cameras so it would be better for the reviews.

On that note, most of the time for events there is barely one camera available and it is not nationally televised so the angles are pretty weak.

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5 hours ago, tommygun said:

Saw this in another thread.  Such a great idea.  If you challenge a call and lose, the challenging wrestler loses a point (not a team point).  Also, a third party must review during NCAA tournament. 

At the (very) least, the non-challenging wrestler should get choice of position if the other team loses a challenge. 

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As I understand it, the home team hires the ref pairs all season long.  That is a recipe for home cooking and should be changed.  Refs who make calls unfavorable to the home team find themselves out of work pretty quickly. Maybe the conferences should have a committee with Mike Allen as a member and assign all refs for each member school's home duals.  Also, the second ref needs to be held more accountable and training should stress that his opinion is valuable and crucial in controversial situations.  Those second refs should be doing more than watching the clock and the out of bounds line.  Those changes might help, and then we could get rid of challenges altogether.  They really haven't helped the situation.

Except from rear standing, control must be established beyond reaction time, correct?  Yet, locked hands occurs after control is established.  Requiring wrestlers to unlock their hands from the takedown hold instantaneously to avoid locked hands seems like a terrible situation to be subject to review while viewed in slow motion or frame by frame stop action.  It's an untenable situation. Do situations and rules apply in real time, or do they depend on when the ref signals verbally that points have been awarded, which is obviously delayed slightly from the action on the mat? It all seems very complicated and difficult when subjected to the microscope of video review.

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10 hours ago, jchapman said:

Do we know the % of challenges that resulted in overturned calls, this season, at B1G, at NCAAs, etc?

From Flo at the NCAA's

Total Reviews - 127

Coaches Challenges - 95

Officials Reviews - 32

Calls Overturned - 27 of 127

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11 hours ago, BobDole said:

With the angles for the first three rounds they really wouldn't be much better. For the semi-finals there are a couple more cameras so it would be better for the reviews.

On that note, most of the time for events there is barely one camera available and it is not nationally televised so the angles are pretty weak.

true.

i guess im thinking only about ncaas.

in the early rounds however, there were at least 2 cameras on every match. one espn, one matside.

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21 minutes ago, Roadkill said:

From Flo at the NCAA's

Total Reviews - 127

Coaches Challenges - 95

Officials Reviews - 32

Calls Overturned - 27 of 127

Thanks!  Do hey break it down further into how many of the coaches challenges got overturned?

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1 hour ago, GockeS said:

true.

i guess im thinking only about ncaas.

in the early rounds however, there were at least 2 cameras on every match. one espn, one matside.

That is correct, but the early round cameras are at a steep angle, so really not that much better. In order to confirm or overturn a call they need to be closer to the mat. In all honesty the second ref probably has a lot better angle than most the cameras. 

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If you make it a match point and teams are allowed unlimited reviews, they will challenge everything at the end of matches.

Make it a team point (or two, or three, or four) and make them unlimited. A team can challenge, but they better be sure. It wouldn't result in a ton of  challenges because the teams at the bottom are at the bottom due to only having a few wrestlers that are not progressing through the tournament and the teams at the top wouldn't challenge everything because they want their points. 

Edited by ptz305

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2 hours ago, BobDole said:

That is correct, but the early round cameras are at a steep angle, so really not that much better. In order to confirm or overturn a call they need to be closer to the mat. In all honesty the second ref probably has a lot better angle than most the cameras. 

perhaps, but it could reveal something that the other angle or ref doesn't see.

steep or not. why not use everything available.

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