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Jimmy Cinnabon

If Iowa doesn't win the team title in 2020 does Brands' seat get hot?

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9 hours ago, goheels1812 said:

Unless I’m losing my mind, I’m pretty sure he wrestled for Okie State in the early 2000s. Not sure he ever AA’d though. 

Pop was 8th as a senior if my memory is correct

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7 hours ago, dougb said:

Joe Seay never Wrestled for the Cowboys, He Wrestled for Kansas State, E.C. Gallegher NEVER WRESTLED, but He was the Wrestling Coach at Oklahoma State (EXTREMELY SUCCESSFUL), I hope John Smith coaches for 20-30 more years, but based on Gallegher's Success, when Smith decides to retire, and the same with Brands at Iowa, Maybe they should go with someone who has never wrestled and see if he can emulate the success Gallagher had as a Wrestling coach.  few if any have suggested a person who has never wrestled to lead a top program, but 11 NCAA titles and 19  Undefeated seasons, maybe that is the way to go, results speak louder than words,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_C._Gallagher

Man...you are talking a totally different era/scenario/landscape, whatever.  Many fewer good coaches, less competition, technique has evolved so much.....I've got a DVD I transferred from VHS from the mid-60's.....it didn't look like many people were even in the stands at the NCAA Finals.  To me the quality of that video (yes black and white), compared to the quality of video/graphics, etc. now, parallels the evolution of wrestling from then to now.....oh yes, there wasn't even sound or broadcasting on that video, and it was an official NCAA video.   Fadz

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7 hours ago, de4856 said:

Well this topic has been discussed at length many times before, and my take is the same, as long as Dan Gable and the Iowa AD are happy with  TnT, they aren't going anywhere. I believe that everyone knows Cael is in the middle of great run, and there is very little anyone can do about it presently. I think the best TnT can do is try and recruit ( which they been doing ), and develop like crazy, and hope for a down year in Happy Valley. 

Also, I may get people who disagree with this but as long as Dan Gable has a say, I believe only a former Iowa wrestler (that has all the right qualifications), would be brought in if TnT were to be let go. And at the moment, I don't think there is anybody out there that fits this description. 

Lastly, Now let's just say that there are some people that are unhappy and may be pushing for a change, who is out there that could replace TnT, and still maintain the same or greater success? Secondly, even though Iowa isn't winning titles, they are having wrestlers win individual titles, as well as getting numerous wrestlers achieve AA status, which continues making Iowa one of the top programs in the nation. So to the people that are unhappy, I would say to them, be careful what you wish for. 

PSU use to have the same philosophy, “hire with in”.  As soon as that changed the program took off. Maybe time for a different philosophy at Iowa. 

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3 hours ago, fadzaev2 said:

Man...you are talking a totally different era/scenario/landscape, whatever.  Many fewer good coaches, less competition, technique has evolved so much.....I've got a DVD I transferred from VHS from the mid-60's.....it didn't look like many people were even in the stands at the NCAA Finals.  To me the quality of that video (yes black and white), compared to the quality of video/graphics, etc. now, parallels the evolution of wrestling from then to now.....oh yes, there wasn't even sound or broadcasting on that video, and it was an official NCAA video.   Fadz

It's tough to watch those old black/white 50-60s era NCAA matches.  I remember watching one with an OSU guy named Kinion. Man, dullest wrestling match I ever watched.

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16 hours ago, spladle said:

His seat is already hot.  Fans and boosters have only so much patience.

I think this is overstated. Brands has a great reputation with the administration, boosters, and the majority of the fans.

Here is a comment after Barta gave him an extension before the '17-'18 season:

“Tom embraces the responsibilities associated with leading the Iowa wrestling program,” Iowa athletic director Gary Barta said in a morning release. “He is committed to our philosophy of ‘Win, Graduate, Do It Right.’ There is tremendous momentum behind our wrestling program and I’m excited about the future.”

They are also in the process of trying to build a new facility. That is not going to even be a discussion if he is on the hot-seat or has lost support with donors. 

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Is the new training facility specifically for wrestling? Thought I read somewhere that Tom Brands helped raise a significant portion of the capital outlay for construction. I hope Flo does a video tour of the new place along with the new Ohio State, Northwestern and Lehigh training facilites & venues. There have been a number of upgrades since Flo last did the cribs tours. 

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I think Iowa should shake things up, but stay with having a Hawkeye coach.

One of the most successful Asst. Coaches for the past decade has been Terry Brands, promote him and fire Tom. Terry would have the option to bring Tom back as an Asst.

This would satisfy both people looking for a change and fans who still love the Brands brothers.

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5 hours ago, BigD236 said:

PSU use to have the same philosophy, “hire with in”.  As soon as that changed the program took off. Maybe time for a different philosophy at Iowa. 

The philosophy has worked pretty well for Michigan athletics over the years.

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13 hours ago, dougb said:

Joe Seay never Wrestled for the Cowboys, He Wrestled for Kansas State, E.C. Gallegher NEVER WRESTLED, but He was the Wrestling Coach at Oklahoma State (EXTREMELY SUCCESSFUL), I hope John Smith coaches for 20-30 more years, but based on Gallegher's Success, when Smith decides to retire, and the same with Brands at Iowa, Maybe they should go with someone who has never wrestled and see if he can emulate the success Gallagher had as a Wrestling coach.  few if any have suggested a person who has never wrestled to lead a top program, but 11 NCAA titles and 19  Undefeated seasons, maybe that is the way to go, results speak louder than words,  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_C._Gallagher

has to be parody.

yes gallagher never wrestled.

but, no one else had either.

gallagher was attuned to the physical. strength and leverage. then saw that his boys were positioned in the high schools around him to feed his college program. this is why he was successful

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28 minutes ago, ThatLogSchuteWasCarrying said:

I think Brands is safe at Iowa for as long as Lee is there. Iowa has lowered their expectations and as long as they have somebody win an individual title every year that'll keep the wolves at bay even if they don't finish in the top 3. 

Yes, Iowa has lowered their expectations. Does that make you happy? Ya'll love to say that Iowa has lowered their expectations. 

I think its pretty short sighted to thing thats the only reason Tom Brands keeps his job. Obviously Iowa wants to win, but there is also more to the sport than simply getting 1st every single year. Its fantastic if he does, but only one team gets to win every year, and if that is the bar being held by every program we are lucky we have just over 70 teams.

Go to the NWCA coaching clinic and see where their emphasis is. It aint on teaching technique. It is about running your program like a business, working with administration, growing and keeping a fan base, high graduation rates, being visible to the community, and staying financially viable. That is just as, if not more important to our sport as winning a title every single year. Hell, Nebraska-Omaha won a D2 title and still got the ax. 

See this stat from when Brands got his extension in '12:

Brands also rejuvenated the Iowa wrestling fan base. When he arrived in 2006-07, Iowa’s average attendance nearly doubled to an NCAA-best 6,740. The Hawkeyes have led the nation in attendance every year since, averaging better than 8,000 fans for four straight years and an NCAA record 9,014 in 2011-12.

Winning is obviously very important, but if you fire Brands in this era you have to make sure you get a guy who can recruit out of state, market and maintain fan interest, and raise money better than Brands does. How money coaches are on the board that can do that? 

Just a few more stats. Iowa had 0 interesting duals at home this year and still had the highest average attendance at 8,526. 7 of the top 12 highest attended duals were at Carver. That is saying something about the state of the program.
 

1. Michigan at Penn State — 15,703

2. Iowa at Oklahoma State — 13,811

3. Penn State at Ohio State — 13,276

4. Iowa State at Iowa — 9,751

5. Maryland at Iowa — 9,738

6. Rutgers at Iowa — 8,500

7. Indiana at Iowa — 8,199

8. Purdue at Iowa — 8,122

9. Princeton at Iowa — 7,940

10. Oklahoma State at Rutgers — 7,545

11. Michigan at Ohio State — 7,465

12. Lehigh at Iowa — 7,434

Edited by russelscout

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1 minute ago, Katie said:

Iowa’s title run happened under an Iowa State product.

Likewise, PSU’s title run is happenin under an Iowa State product. 

Ergo, if Iowa wants to get back on top, they must look to Iowa State.

Jarrett Degen is the answer!

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14 minutes ago, GockeS said:

has to be parody.

yes gallagher never wrestled.

but, no one else had either.

gallagher was attuned to the physical. strength and leverage. then saw that his boys were positioned in the high schools around him to feed his college program. this is why he was successful

Like Bill Belichek and Pete Carroll.

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2 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Yes, Iowa has lowered their expectations. Does that make you happy? Ya'll love to say that Iowa has lowered their expectations. 

I think its pretty short sighted to thing thats the only reason Tom Brands keeps his job. Obviously Iowa wants to win, but there is also more to the sport than simply getting 1st every single year. Its fantastic if he does, but only one team gets to win every year, and if that is the bar being held by every program we are lucky we have just over 70 teams.

Go to the NWCA coaching clinic and see where their emphasis is. It aint on teaching technique. It is about running your program like a business, working with administration, growing and keeping a fan base, high graduation rates, being visible to the community, and staying financially viable. That is just as, if not more important to our sport as winning a title every single year. Hell, Nebraska-Omaha won a D2 title and still got the ax. 

See this stat from when Brands got his extension in '12:

Brands also rejuvenated the Iowa wrestling fan base. When he arrived in 2006-07, Iowa’s average attendance nearly doubled to an NCAA-best 6,740. The Hawkeyes have led the nation in attendance every year since, averaging better than 8,000 fans for four straight years and an NCAA record 9,014 in 2011-12.

Winning is obviously very important, but if you fire Brands in this era you have to make sure you get a guy who can recruit out of state, market and maintain fan interest, and raise money better than Brands does. How money coaches are on the board that can do that? 

There is a lot of flawed logic within this comment....

1). Wrestling isn't "financially viable"....at any level. I agree, PSU, OSU, tOSU, and Iowa do a very good job of holding their own when it comes to being "financially viable"....but they don't make money.....they aren't within a football field of even breaking even. *pun intended*

2). In terms of attendance, I think a lot of that had to do with a new face and also Iowa coming off the Zalesky era. I by no means believe Zalesky is great and I agree he won with Gable's talent, but lets be real.....he was doomed from the start. Imagine following the most successful wrestling coach in the modern age...the expectations are insurmountable. He was able to win a few titles and then was gone after his teams didn't perform. *This sounds eerily familiar*

3). Lastly, wrestling is ingrained in Iowa. I agree that some coaches can build the program up more than others, but the interest in wrestling (Thanks to Gable) from Iowans isn't going anywhere in the foreseeable future. Brands didn't create this.....Gable did. Bringing in a fresh face might hurt some people's feelings, but that feeling is curable....the cure is winning. If a new coach came in and recruited through the roof, developed ALL weights, and was contending for National Titles....I have a hard time believing the fan base wouldn't forget about ol Tom and Terry. 

 

I agree with the majority of the sentiment on this thread. No one out there is better RIGHT NOW than Tom and Terry. If Iowa doesn't win back to back titles in 2020 and 2021 then I would hope the AD does his due diligence and at least address the lack of success with Tom. 

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50 minutes ago, MrDream said:

There is a lot of flawed logic within this comment....

1). Wrestling isn't "financially viable"....at any level. I agree, PSU, OSU, tOSU, and Iowa do a very good job of holding their own when it comes to being "financially viable"....but they don't make money.....they aren't within a football field of even breaking even. *pun intended*

2). In terms of attendance, I think a lot of that had to do with a new face and also Iowa coming off the Zalesky era. I by no means believe Zalesky is great and I agree he won with Gable's talent, but lets be real.....he was doomed from the start. Imagine following the most successful wrestling coach in the modern age...the expectations are insurmountable. He was able to win a few titles and then was gone after his teams didn't perform. *This sounds eerily familiar*

3). Lastly, wrestling is ingrained in Iowa. I agree that some coaches can build the program up more than others, but the interest in wrestling (Thanks to Gable) from Iowans isn't going anywhere in the foreseeable future. Brands didn't create this.....Gable did. Bringing in a fresh face might hurt some people's feelings, but that feeling is curable....the cure is winning. If a new coach came in and recruited through the roof, developed ALL weights, and was contending for National Titles....I have a hard time believing the fan base wouldn't forget about ol Tom and Terry. 

 

I agree with the majority of the sentiment on this thread. No one out there is better RIGHT NOW than Tom and Terry. If Iowa doesn't win back to back titles in 2020 and 2021 then I would hope the AD does his due diligence and at least address the lack of success with Tom. 

1. You're right that wrestling is not coming out positive on the balance sheet. Many sports don't, but what a college sports team that is supported so strongly by the community and fans does is to create loyalty amongst alumni and even the state legislature. This does have a return that is not accounted for on the balance sheet. Iowa wrestling is very much part of Iowa's brand and Tom Brands has done a good job of maintaining that. 

2. New face? It has been 12 years and their has not been a decline in attendance or fan support. You accuse me of flawed logic, but this is cherry picking at its best.

3. Doesn't this point you are making here refute the point you are trying to make in your second one? Once again accusing me of flawed logic, but this is circular reasoning.  You are arguing that if a new coach came in and had more success the fans would support it. I certainly don't disagree with that. It is obvious. Why should I also assume that a new coach would come in and have more success? Thats a pretty tall task to just assume isn't it? Iowa has maintained top 5 every year since Tom's first year. 1 maybe 2 other coaches have been able to do that. 3 total out of 80 other head coaches. Which guy you putting your money on to come in and be a guaranteed an improvement in 2 years? 
 

Edited by russelscout

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9 minutes ago, russelscout said:

1. You're right that wrestling is not coming out positive on the balance sheet. Many sports don't, but what a college sports team that is supported so strongly by the community and fans does is to create loyalty amongst alumni and even the state legislature. This does have a return that is not accounted for on the balance sheet. Iowa wrestling is very much part of Iowa's brand and Tom Brands has done a good job of maintaining that. 

2. New face? It has been 12 years and their has not been a decline in attendance or fan support. You accuse me of flawed logic, but this is cherry picking at its best.

3. Doesn't this point you are making here refute the point you are trying to make in your second one? Once again accusing me of flawed logic, but this is circular reasoning.  You are arguing that if a new coach came in and had more success the fans would support it. I certainly don't disagree with that. It is obvious. Why should I also assume that a new coach would come in and have more success? Thats a pretty tall task to just assume isn't it? Iowa has maintained top 5 every year since Tom's first year. 1 maybe 2 other coaches have been able to do that. 3 total out of 80 other head coaches. Which guy you putting your money on to come in and be a guaranteed an improvement in 2 years? 
 

If my point came across as guaranteeing a new coach would come in and improve than I did a poor job of projecting my point. What I was trying to convey was that IF you bring a new coach in then yes, some fans wouldn't like it (let's just say the majority), my point is there is one cure for that sentiment....success. The success I'm talking about isn't guaranteed. But the potential success would cure the fans dislike for the hire...In my opinion. 

All I am asking for (after 2021) is that Brands be evaluated based on current merit instead on his legacy as a Hawkeye wrestler and his past success. 

Edited by MrDream

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1 minute ago, MrDream said:

If my point came across as guaranteeing a new coach would come in and improve than I did a poor job of projecting my point. What I was trying to convey was that IF you bring a new coach in then yes, some fans wouldn't like it (let's just say the majority), my point is there is one cure for that sentiment....success. The success I'm talking about isn't guaranteed. But the potential success would cure the fans dislike for the hire...In my opinion. 

All I am asking for (after 2021) is that Brands be evaluated based on current merit instead on his legacy as a Hawkeye wrestler and his past success. 

Ok, but once again with the circular reasoning. That is not news dude. You are making a point that is irrelevant to what I am talking about. In the last ten years 3 coaches have won NCAA titles and one of them is Brands. In the last 10 years, which only counts one of Tom's titles he averages the 2nd best finish at Nationals of any other coach. 

Cael-2.3
Ryan- 6.4
J. Smith- 4.9
Koll- 5.4
Brands- 3.3

Going off of merit that is still pretty damn good performance, and it is insane that people like you would suggest he is getting a pass because he was Hawkeye wrestler. He shouldn't be put on a timeline because right now he is one of the top coaches in the country. It would be pretty damn risky to take on a new coach when the old one was that good.  There are more challenges at Iowa than there were when he showed up. Recruiting is not reliable in state. There is a dynasty in the recruiting hot bed and PSU has been dominating recruiting nationally. Brands and Iowa seem to be trying to address that issue. Look at their line-up. You would need to bring on a guy who can overcome that challenge better than Brands and it is a tall task.You have a simple minded solution and fail to even consider the changing wrestling landscape. 
 

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