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Jimmy Cinnabon

If Iowa doesn't win the team title in 2020 does Brands' seat get hot?

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4 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Ok, but once again with the circular reasoning. That is not news dude. You are making a point that is irrelevant to what I am talking about. In the last ten years 3 coaches have won NCAA titles and one of them is Brands. In the last 10 years, which only counts one of Tom's titles he averages the 2nd best finish at Nationals of any other coach. 

Cael-2.3
Ryan- 6.4
J. Smith- 4.9
Koll- 5.4
Brands- 3.3

Going off of merit that is still pretty damn good performance, and it is insane that people like you would suggest he is getting a pass because he was Hawkeye wrestler. He shouldn't be put on a timeline because right now he is one of the top coaches in the country. It would be pretty damn risky to take on a new coach when the old one was that good.  There are more challenges at Iowa than there were when he showed up. Recruiting is not reliable in state. There is a dynasty in the recruiting hot bed and PSU has been dominating recruiting nationally. Brands and Iowa seem to be trying to address that issue. Look at their line-up. You would need to bring on a guy who can overcome that challenge better than Brands and it is a tall task.You have a simple minded solution and fail to even consider the changing wrestling landscape. 
 

"You have a simple minded solution and fail to even consider the changing wrestling landscape."

My solution would be evaluate his inadequacies and gauge the market to gain a sense if anyone can address Tom's inadequacies. I don't think that's simpleminded. You do. So we disagree. 

I'm not calling for his head....just an evaluation IF he isn't able to win in 2020 and 2021. 

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3 minutes ago, MrDream said:

"You have a simple minded solution and fail to even consider the changing wrestling landscape."

My solution would be evaluate his inadequacies and gauge the market to gain a sense if anyone can address Tom's inadequacies. I don't think that's simpleminded. You do. So we disagree. 

I'm not calling for his head....just an evaluation IF he isn't able to win in 2020 and 2021. 

Ok, so what are the inadequacies you see in statistically the number 2 coach in the last 10 years? Do you have an example are just want to keep it pretty vague? I mean you call me out for flawed logic, I would expect to see some strong counter arguments, but haven't seen anything yet. 

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1). Recruiting - Glad to see they somewhat addressed the issue by bringing in Perry. My preference would have been to bring him on as head assistant and move Terry over to the HWC. Terry can be around the kids all he wants but it would be solely for technique. 

2). Development - This is just at heavier weights. Brands develops lighter weights well (not a coincidence due to his size), but consistency at 174, 184, 197, and HWT has been missing. Hopefully Warner can subdue that a bit, but he looked to lacking in consistency on offense this year. 

3). Coaching Philosophy - This is something I probably point to more than anything. I can't stand how "out-lasting" your opponent is still a mantra in 2019, especially at the college level. You can wear guys down in middle school and even high school, but this endurance mentality is absolutely a joke. It's not the early 1990's anymore where you can just constantly attack and keep pressuring. Athletes have developed. Most major D1 contenders are in incredible shape AND have multiple facets of offense. I see the Brands style as very in your face but with little offensive awareness. This method can definitely get you to All-American status (given the athlete has a decent offensive arsenal), but to beat the top guys it can't just be about conditioning. I feel like Metcalf gave the Brands brothers hope that their style was still relevant, but he was very savvy in his offense attacks to go along with his crazy high motor. Look at Gilman, DeSanto, and Marinelli. All super high pace guys....but when facing a guy who has more athleticism and decent defense....they look lost on offense. 

 

All of this is relative to when I was growing up and how great Iowa was....so I probably have a biased view on what Iowa should be. But when you are paying 2 coaches in excess of $500k combined.....you need to deliver the TOP RESULT.  

 

Again...this is just my opinion. 

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2 hours ago, russelscout said:

Yes, Iowa has lowered their expectations. Does that make you happy? Ya'll love to say that Iowa has lowered their expectations. 

I think its pretty short sighted to thing thats the only reason Tom Brands keeps his job. Obviously Iowa wants to win, but there is also more to the sport than simply getting 1st every single year. Its fantastic if he does, but only one team gets to win every year, and if that is the bar being held by every program we are lucky we have just over 70 teams.

 

If Lee had faded to 7th like Marinelli but Iowa had still gotten 4th (from Stoll or Wickle AAing, bonus points, whatever, how that would happen doesn't matter unless it's another guy in the finals) Brands wouldn't even be able to sit down because of how hot his seat would be. Having an individual champ really takes the sting out of a lessened team finish. 

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21 minutes ago, MrDream said:

1). Recruiting - Glad to see they somewhat addressed the issue by bringing in Perry. My preference would have been to bring him on as head assistant and move Terry over to the HWC. Terry can be around the kids all he wants but it would be solely for technique. 

2). Development - This is just at heavier weights. Brands develops lighter weights well (not a coincidence due to his size), but consistency at 174, 184, 197, and HWT has been missing. Hopefully Warner can subdue that a bit, but he looked to lacking in consistency on offense this year. 

3). Coaching Philosophy - This is something I probably point to more than anything. I can't stand how "out-lasting" your opponent is still a mantra in 2019, especially at the college level. You can wear guys down in middle school and even high school, but this endurance mentality is absolutely a joke. It's not the early 1990's anymore where you can just constantly attack and keep pressuring. Athletes have developed. Most major D1 contenders are in incredible shape AND have multiple facets of offense. I see the Brands style as very in your face but with little offensive awareness. This method can definitely get you to All-American status (given the athlete has a decent offensive arsenal), but to beat the top guys it can't just be about conditioning. I feel like Metcalf gave the Brands brothers hope that their style was still relevant, but he was very savvy in his offense attacks to go along with his crazy high motor. Look at Gilman, DeSanto, and Marinelli. All super high pace guys....but when facing a guy who has more athleticism and decent defense....they look lost on offense. 

 

All of this is relative to when I was growing up and how great Iowa was....so I probably have a biased view on what Iowa should be. But when you are paying 2 coaches in excess of $500k combined.....you need to deliver the TOP RESULT.  

 

Again...this is just my opinion. 

1. Recruiting is definitely being addressed. I don't believe Perry has anything to do with that though. Its been pretty well covered that M* does a lot of the recruiting

2. We will see with Warner. I agree the upper weights need to be addressed, but it hasn't really been a lack of performance as much as lack of talent. Unless you consider Brooks and Evans under performers. They could use a better upper weights coach.

3. 

21 minutes ago, MrDream said:

Look at Gilman, DeSanto, and Marinelli. All super high pace guys....but when facing a guy who has more athleticism and decent defense....they look lost on offense.


This doesn't seem to be unique to Iowa alone. A better athlete you have a hard time scoring. That doesn't point to a philosophical issue. Hell even Nolf couldn't get points against an athlete like Hidlay. Is that a philosophy problem? I have only heard Brands say that his philosophy is scoring points. Sometimes points are harder to come by and that is not just true for Iowa. 

Edited by russelscout

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8 minutes ago, ThatLogSchuteWasCarrying said:

 

If Lee had faded to 7th like Marinelli but Iowa had still gotten 4th (from Stoll or Wickle AAing, bonus points, whatever, how that would happen doesn't matter unless it's another guy in the finals) Brands wouldn't even be able to sit down because of how hot his seat would be. Having an individual champ really takes the sting out of a lessened team finish. 

What place did you think they would get? 7-8 AAs wouldn't be too bad. I find it hard to believe he would have to go if that happened. Good thing it didn't. 

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3 hours ago, pamela said:

Like Bill Belichek and Pete Carroll.

not sure your point... 

they never played football?

because that's not my point about gallagher

to use the example of gallagher in this instance makes no sense... NO ONE, NO ONE, wrestled before wrestling started... there were no competitions. he got in on the ground floor. and he built up the high school programs around him with his former wrestlers. other colleges didn't have this same type of system  or at least no to the extent that gallagher did 

could someone like belichek, who has been around football his whole life, around coaches, do it? possibly.

and yes belicheck DID play. just not in NFL

i have hundreds of examples of high school coaches who didn't wrestle at all who were good coaches, but they coached years ago, or are at the end of their careers and that's simply not the case anymore

the reason there aren't many coaches in wrestling who didn't wrestle at this juncture, is b/c people aren't really interested in wrestling

Edited by GockeS

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3 hours ago, russelscout said:

Yes, Iowa has lowered their expectations. Does that make you happy? Ya'll love to say that Iowa has lowered their expectations. 

I think its pretty short sighted to thing thats the only reason Tom Brands keeps his job. Obviously Iowa wants to win, but there is also more to the sport than simply getting 1st every single year. Its fantastic if he does, but only one team gets to win every year, and if that is the bar being held by every program we are lucky we have just over 70 teams.

Go to the NWCA coaching clinic and see where their emphasis is. It aint on teaching technique. It is about running your program like a business, working with administration, growing and keeping a fan base, high graduation rates, being visible to the community, and staying financially viable. That is just as, if not more important to our sport as winning a title every single year. Hell, Nebraska-Omaha won a D2 title and still got the ax. 

See this stat from when Brands got his extension in '12:

Brands also rejuvenated the Iowa wrestling fan base. When he arrived in 2006-07, Iowa’s average attendance nearly doubled to an NCAA-best 6,740. The Hawkeyes have led the nation in attendance every year since, averaging better than 8,000 fans for four straight years and an NCAA record 9,014 in 2011-12.

Winning is obviously very important, but if you fire Brands in this era you have to make sure you get a guy who can recruit out of state, market and maintain fan interest, and raise money better than Brands does. How money coaches are on the board that can do that? 

Just a few more stats. Iowa had 0 interesting duals at home this year and still had the highest average attendance at 8,526. 7 of the top 12 highest attended duals were at Carver. That is saying something about the state of the program.
 

1. Michigan at Penn State — 15,703

2. Iowa at Oklahoma State — 13,811

3. Penn State at Ohio State — 13,276

4. Iowa State at Iowa — 9,751

5. Maryland at Iowa — 9,738

6. Rutgers at Iowa — 8,500

7. Indiana at Iowa — 8,199

8. Purdue at Iowa — 8,122

9. Princeton at Iowa — 7,940

10. Oklahoma State at Rutgers — 7,545

11. Michigan at Ohio State — 7,465

12. Lehigh at Iowa — 7,434

it reminds me of no child left behind 

All teams must make the state playoffs, and must win the championship. If a team doesn't win the championship, they'll be on probation until they're the champions and coaches will be held accountable. If, after two years, they've not won the championship, their footballs and equipment will be taken away until they do win.

All kids will be expected to have the same football skills at the same time. No exceptions will be made or lack of interest in football, a desire to perform athletically, or genetic abilities or disabilities. All kids will play football at a proficient level.

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Well there lots of very good points here, and yeah, maybe they the will look outside Iowa when it comes time to replace TnT, but I personally believe that isn't going to happen anytime soon. 

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Here is when you know it would be a bad idea to replace your coach (and really this applies to any sport at every level): if 90%+ of the other teams would take that coach in a heartbeat.

This board can argue for days about the effectiveness of TnT and the antics and the Iowa style, etc etc. But those guys would have numerous job interviews lined up before they even got out of their office. There are a lot of schools that would love to have the success TnT have had at Iowa. Be careful what you wish for.... grass always seems greener on the other side. 

Edited by goheels1812

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If they don't get things done in the next year or two I could see Iowa offering a guy like Taylor a lot if money to come in and try that. Hes already coaching his own camps and has all the name recognition needed to recruit. He also knows the inside secrets that make psu so successful and can bring that over as well. Just a thought but I could see it happening

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4 hours ago, ThatLogSchuteWasCarrying said:

 

If Lee had faded to 7th like Marinelli but Iowa had still gotten 4th (from Stoll or Wickle AAing, bonus points, whatever, how that would happen doesn't matter unless it's another guy in the finals) Brands wouldn't even be able to sit down because of how hot his seat would be. Having an individual champ really takes the sting out of a lessened team finish. 

This is it. 

Nobody remembers second place. If you’re not going to win NCAAs, your program, and therefore your tenure as a coach, will benefit much more from having an individual champ than from placing one, two, or even three spots higher in the team race. The margin of victory by PSU is so large anyway that second place feels like 4th or 5th place anyway. 

Nobody cares what Rutgers placed. They just remember that Rutgers had two champs, second only to PSU. It sure as hell felt like they were 2nd to PSU that night. 

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On 3/27/2019 at 6:41 PM, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Returning 7 All Americans next year....PSU losing big guns in Nickal, Nolf and maybe Cassar and Rasheed.  This is Iowa's best shot at a time title in the last 10 years.  If Brands can't get it done next year does his seat heat up?

 

Or is he safe regardless?

Rasheed turned out to be more of a starter pistol after his injury.

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On 3/27/2019 at 10:32 PM, embracethegrind said:

I dont think brands will be in the hot seat. l thought he did a great job (all the coaches) at the NCAAs getting their wrestlers ready. young was a surprisingly high finish, murin wrestled well and was a match short of AA, lugo wrestled well and so did warner at the end. Even had Stoll scoring points and strategizing to move into the tournament.  of course lee, desanto and marinelli wrestled well. these next few years will be exciting for Hawkeye fans. question will be- will lee take a redshirt year? if they want to win a title they need him there.  but it sounds like he wont sinve gilman is there. 

They were penciled in at 4th pre-tournament

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On 3/28/2019 at 1:33 PM, russelscout said:

Yes, Iowa has lowered their expectations. Does that make you happy? Ya'll love to say that Iowa has lowered their expectations. 

I think its pretty short sighted to thing thats the only reason Tom Brands keeps his job. Obviously Iowa wants to win, but there is also more to the sport than simply getting 1st every single year. Its fantastic if he does, but only one team gets to win every year, and if that is the bar being held by every program we are lucky we have just over 70 teams.

Go to the NWCA coaching clinic and see where their emphasis is. It aint on teaching technique. It is about running your program like a business, working with administration, growing and keeping a fan base, high graduation rates, being visible to the community, and staying financially viable. That is just as, if not more important to our sport as winning a title every single year. Hell, Nebraska-Omaha won a D2 title and still got the ax. 

See this stat from when Brands got his extension in '12:

Brands also rejuvenated the Iowa wrestling fan base. When he arrived in 2006-07, Iowa’s average attendance nearly doubled to an NCAA-best 6,740. The Hawkeyes have led the nation in attendance every year since, averaging better than 8,000 fans for four straight years and an NCAA record 9,014 in 2011-12.

Winning is obviously very important, but if you fire Brands in this era you have to make sure you get a guy who can recruit out of state, market and maintain fan interest, and raise money better than Brands does. How money coaches are on the board that can do that? 

Just a few more stats. Iowa had 0 interesting duals at home this year and still had the highest average attendance at 8,526. 7 of the top 12 highest attended duals were at Carver. That is saying something about the state of the program.
 

1. Michigan at Penn State — 15,703

2. Iowa at Oklahoma State — 13,811

3. Penn State at Ohio State — 13,276

4. Iowa State at Iowa — 9,751

5. Maryland at Iowa — 9,738

6. Rutgers at Iowa — 8,500

7. Indiana at Iowa — 8,199

8. Purdue at Iowa — 8,122

9. Princeton at Iowa — 7,940

10. Oklahoma State at Rutgers — 7,545

11. Michigan at Ohio State — 7,465

12. Lehigh at Iowa — 7,434

Zalesky on line 2....He would like to hire you as his agent!

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All this talk ignores the reality here. Iowa had a good tournament. If you are a flo subscriber, check out their recent article about performance compared to seeds. Iowa performed the best of all the major teams by far. They lost their second best wrestler for the season before it even started and their preseason #1 heavyweight got shot in the same knee he's blown out twice and was never close to being in good form this year. Conservatively, that's probably around 20 pts right there. Their undefeated 165 probably finishes 2nd if he's the 2 seed instead of the 1 (add another 8-10 there).

They were objectively pretty snake-bitten this year. That was apparent almost from the start with the Stoll and Kemerer injuries and the illness issues they had with Lee and Lugo (not to mention Warner injuring himself tripping on a curb). It was very reminiscent of Ok. State's year last year. They had a very talented team that never really clicked all year. Then had a disatrous tournament. The only difference was Iowa was able to put together a really solid tournament performance at the end. 

If Brands goes through this next cycle of talent without a title, the seat might start to get warm, but Brands will also be in his mid to late 50s at that point anyway. I would guess he steps away before he's forced out. The same conversation applies to Smith, who if you want to have this kind of discussion, is probably more deserving of heat than Brands. I don't think Smith is any closer to beating Penn State than Brands is and hasn't won a title since 2006. He has been the beneficiary of an exceptional talent boon in Oklahoma in the last 5-7 years that doesn't appear to be continuing into the future. He's going to have to face a reality that Brands has, a state with a small amount of D1 talent to pull from. Luckily, I think the athletic departments at these schools are a lot smarter than some of the idiots that post here, so I don't think either is going against their will anytime soon.

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I've been thinking for a while now that Terry should be the RTC coach, Perry should be the head assistant and upperweight coach and that two new guys not from Iowa for the light and middle weights.

I know coaches like to hire their own but Iowa needs to think outside the box here.

Plus, you do not need a heavyweight to be the heavyweight coach.  I'm predicting that this recruiting season, coaches are going to be looking for those rare athletic HS 182/195 pounders with frames that can build to heavy.

Edited by Boompa

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On 3/28/2019 at 8:09 PM, Perry said:

If they don't get things done in the next year or two I could see Iowa offering a guy like Taylor a lot if money to come in and try that. Hes already coaching his own camps and has all the name recognition needed to recruit. He also knows the inside secrets that make psu so successful and can bring that over as well. Just a thought but I could see it happening

Ask the Detroit Lions how that is working out. Or the Broncos about a decade ago.  Just because you coached/learned under the best doesn’t mean you will be a good head coach when you haven’t even been a head coach before. 

Iowa’s success, or “perceived” lack thereof, has very little to do with Brands and tons more to do with today’s landscape.  Regardless of the success under Gable, PSU and tOSU are MUCH more recognizable schools nationally as a whole  and are a part of a small group of Athletic Department Super Powers and BOTH wrestling programs have their full support that flows into facilities and trickles down to the RTCs. That doesn’t even mention the two richest crops of High School recruits. 

Under the current landscape, the Brands are doing as well as anyone not named Sanderson could do. A new facility should bolster things a bit, but they are in an arms race with tOSU and PSU and they have a stockpile of Nukes, while Iowa is fighting hard to produce the amount they both have available just for their 1st strike. 

Simply put, the field isn’t level between the 3.  An elite coach SHOULD do better at PSU and tOSU than Iowa. The resources don’t lie. 

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