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Bombermule

Sam Stoll vs Mason Parris- Stalling on the Edge

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The topic of stalling, particularly stalling on the edge of the mat, has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum, so rather than open this up to the broad inconsistencies that we have seen with calling stalling on the edge (which is an issue), I'd like to discuss Sam Stoll's style of wrestling.

My seats at NCAAs were right next to the Michigan section and Mason Parris' dad was just a row behind me, so when Stoll wrestled Parris in the first round there were a lot of people who were very angry about Parris being called for stalling several times in that match. I don't know if my friends were just getting absorbed in the opinions of the fans around us, but they (and most of the people I discussed this match with) were upset about Parris being called for stalling.

Wrestling fans know that Stoll is a big wrestler who grabs a Russian tie and pushes into guys, often pushing them off the mat. Parris let Stoll push him off the mat several times and was hit for stalling several times (though the ref was afraid to stall Parris out of the match). Parris WAS stalling. I know some people will say, "yes, it is stalling based on the way the rule is written, but it's not REALLY stalling." or "Stoll should be hit for stalling for pushing people of the mat."

Parris needed to react. Initially, he didn't because he was in a position of disadvantage. He didn't want to push in because that would open up Stoll's offense. After realizing that he was going to stall out of the match, Parris finally pushed back into Stoll and...Stoll snapped him down and scored. The next time Parris knew the Russian was coming so he shot and Stoll scored off his shot. Backing off the mat because you are in an uncomfortable position is textbook stalling and is what the edge of the mat stall rules were put in place to protect against.

I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts.

With all this said I concede that:

  • Stoll's style is not the most exciting
  • The refs are inconsistent in their edge of the mat stall calls, and I would be in favor of going to the freestyle push out rule.

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Murin is just as bad as stoll on that front tbar. It was funny at one point in the season the flo guys called him on it during the in match commentary. Pointed out that he wasnt looking to score off of his offense and was trying to get a stall call out of the official. I noted on the other thread that I'm glad Iowa seems to be recruiting more offensively minded kids (or transferring them in while complaining when other teams do it). I'm excited to see what their team looks like next year

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13 minutes ago, Dr. Novak said:

Wood from Lehigh wrestled Stoll in the quarters and didn't give an inch.  Most of the match was wrestled in the center circle.  Parris was clearly stalling and without the new push out rule he would have simply gone out of bounds every 20 seconds.

Bingo. 

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19 minutes ago, Dr. Novak said:

Wood from Lehigh wrestled Stoll in the quarters and didn't give an inch.  Most of the match was wrestled in the center circle.  Parris was clearly stalling and without the new push out rule he would have simply gone out of bounds every 20 seconds.

The fact that Wood was able to stay in the center of the mat has nothing to do with Parris. Nothing at all. It  is a red herring. 

Pushing is pushing, but its not wrestling and you don't reward less athletic wrestlers simply because they can push someone in a straight line. And when a wrestler does this and actually LOOKS FOR a stalling call, that tells you all you need to know about which wrestler is truly stalling. It is the guy pushing. 

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My response isn't that relevant to 285, but here it goes anyway.

Wrestling with your butt to the center of the mat is easier to do with inside ties. Inside ties allow you to push your opponent around. As John Smith notes in this video

, shorter guys almost always have the advantage in inside tie/push fights. Taller guys attempting to clear these ties usually have to circle away and this is stalling. At least, it looks like he's stalling. But, in matches like the Scott Slaton dual match, the taller guy could be taking the most risk. I guess that's just how it goes.

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whoever the announcer was claimed he was an official at the B10 tournament and did talk about several calls he disagreed with/was surprised by, and also called out how he didn’t even know time expired in the first period.   I don’t think he did a terrible job here as he did hit Stoll a few times as well but I don’t really recognize this guy, did he get many matches after this?

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

To the OP, your opinion is just that. An opinion. Mine is that pushing a guy off the mat is not wrestling, it is pushing. Stoll and others wearing the Iowa singlet want to be rewarded for pushing, but that is wrong. 

I know it is just my opinion and not popular. Pushing for the sake of pushing is not wrestling. Stoll is pushing and looking for a reaction. When Parris finally pushed back, Stoll snapped him.

I actually have mixed feelings about the stall call that DeSanto received for "pushing" Pletcher. I believe the wrong call was made based on the rules. DeSanto did not have his arms extended to push. He shot him off the mat in an attempt to draw a stall call. He was not trying to take him down, however, I am surprised that a ref can make the determination that one shot is legit and one shot is not. He dropped to a knee and wrapped the back of Pletcher's leg and got called for stalling for pushing him off the mat.

My main point is that Stoll is not just pushing, he is looking for pressure back. Novak is right that Wood figured him out. Wrestle him in the middle and beat him.

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The rule does not work. The idea of half-implementing freestyle does not work. I heard Cael say in an interview this season when asked about changing the rule to freestyle that many people like the idea of wrestling on the edge. Until this mindset is eliminated, the rule will never be changed to mimic freestyle.

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many "like" to wrestle on the edge because there is safety there... it rewards not wrestling... it is awful...

there is a huge mat there to wrestle in... scared to wrestle in it?

go home...

there are kids all over this planet who actually learn to wrestle inside the boundary established as the competition field... they learn how to circle, hand fight, stand their ground, what to do when someone is pushing into you and vice versa... 

it's not complicated...

step out solves all of this... 

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More like the refs getting absolutely caught up and losing control of a match that the entire arena was fixated on. How can people blame/punish the wrestlers when the officials don't even know how to make the call on an unclear rule? 

Boring wrestling or not Stoll is not going to be the last "Stoll" so expect more of this until a clear cut rule is figured out that the refs can call.  

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not the refs fault... the rule book itself shows the exact same position and tells them to call it two different ways...

it is a **** rule that leads to ambiguous calls...

stop rewarding not wrestling...

step out solves all of this...

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The ref lost his mind in this match.  Look at the stall call he hits on Stoll immediately on a restart at about 2:31 of the video.  He's clearly trying to "even out" the stall calls.  Literally, Parris shoots off the whistle, and the ref hits Stoll for stalling.

Then he doesn't realize the time has run out on the first period.

Then he hits Stoll for stalling again as he shoots Parris off the mat and nearly has a body lock at about 4:54.

Then, at 8:54, Parris tries to roll and Stoll catches him on his back.  Parris gets out of danger, but Stoll still has a shoulder turned, and the ref hits him for stalling on top.  Less than 5 second after nearly getting back points.

The ref, again, lost his mind.  And Parris stalled his ass off.  He was sprinting straight backwards anytime Stoll had a lock of any kind.  Not circling, not handfighting.  Going straight backwards.

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1 hour ago, Bombermule said:

I know it is just my opinion and not popular. Pushing for the sake of pushing is not wrestling. Stoll is pushing and looking for a reaction. When Parris finally pushed back, Stoll snapped him.

I actually have mixed feelings about the stall call that DeSanto received for "pushing" Pletcher. I believe the wrong call was made based on the rules. DeSanto did not have his arms extended to push. He shot him off the mat in an attempt to draw a stall call. He was not trying to take him down, however, I am surprised that a ref can make the determination that one shot is legit and one shot is not. He dropped to a knee and wrapped the back of Pletcher's leg and got called for stalling for pushing him off the mat.

My main point is that Stoll is not just pushing, he is looking for pressure back. Novak is right that Wood figured him out. Wrestle him in the middle and beat him.

They need to make more of those calls, not less. Desanto and Brands are trying to get free points by pushing opponents OOB.

BTW, did you notice in that match that Pletcher employed, to a lesser degree but still, the left arm drawn towards his left rear side? He did. Go check it out and you'll see it. I think that is fine too. If Desanto is good enough then let him go chase that arm the same way you have to shoot on the leg. If wrestler A knows a guy likes to shoot the far leg, then he can keep that leg back as far away as possible and this is the exact same thing as keeping the left arm as far away as possible. If Desanto is good enough, then let him overcome that tactic. Don't just plead and beg the refs to give you free points. 

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Just now, TBar1977 said:

They need to make more of those calls, not less. Desanto and Brands are trying to get free points by pushing opponents OOB.

BTW, did you notice in that match that Pletcher employed, to a lesser degree but still, the left arm drawn towards his left rear side? He did. Go check it out and you'll see it. I think that is fine too. If Desanto is good enough then let him go chase that arm the same way you have to shoot on the leg. If wrestler A knows a guy likes to shoot the far leg, then he can keep that leg back as far away as possible and this is the exact same thing as keeping the left arm as far away as possible. If Desanto is good enough, then let him overcome that tactic. Don't just plead and beg the refs to give you free points. 

Except you can create offense with a leg way back.

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1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

Except you can create offense with a leg way back.

You can move the left arm to create offense too. Or maybe you forgot that RBY almost had TD's in both of the first two periods, and that he took the initial shot that led to Austin's standing Merkle in period 1, or that RBY initiated the action with 20 seconds left as well. RBY objectively had zero problem initiating offense in that match, despite his position and posture. You want it penalized because you want free points for your guys. 

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