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Sam Stoll vs Mason Parris- Stalling on the Edge

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5 minutes ago, LJB said:

dummy

douchebag, LJB. 

You want to keep this up, LJB??? I have all day free and I'm inclined to see what your gas tank looks like for this kind of thing. You started this, so let's see what kind of stomach you have for it. 

Edited by TBar1977

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1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

douchebag

face it... you have nothing to offer... just a fan boi...

and i typically don't like to say things that bluntly, but, it really does apply 100% to you...

and for the record, i am not a fan of any particular school... i am a fan of individual wrestlers who actually wrestle...

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Just now, LJB said:

face it... you have nothing to offer... just a fan boi...

and i typically don't like to say things that bluntly, but, it really does apply 100% to you...

and for the record, i am not a fan of any particular school... i am a fan of individual wrestlers who actually wrestle...

face it you have nothing to offer either . you can't handle disagreement

and I typically don't like to say things this bluntly either, but you really have been a douchebag here LJB

 

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3 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

douchebag, LJB. 

You want to keep this up, LJB??? I have all day free and I'm inclined to see what your gas tank looks like for this kind of thing. You started this, so let's see what kind of stomach you have for it. 

BUT, BUT, BUT... YOU STARTED IT!!!!!

Ive got about one more hour before i head out of state to go to a tourney that is wrestling the real styles... you will be laughed and then quickly dismissed in due time...

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1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

face it you have nothing to offer either . you can't handle disagreement

and I typically don't like to say things this bluntly either, but you really have been a douchebag here LJB

 

i can handle disagreement if it is backed by solid logic and reasoning, but, sadly, that is not your MO...

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

i can handle disagreement if it is backed by solid logic and reasoning, but, sadly, that is not your MO...

That is your opinion, LJB, and some Iowa fans agree with you but they are really vested in this sort og thing, LJB. As you can see from this thread, however, not everyone agrees with you. Pletcher did the same thing RBY did, go to ohiowrestling.net and see how many Ohio State fans you can convince that Pletcher was stalling in that match. 

You won't.  

Edited by TBar1977

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

They need to make more of those calls, not less. Desanto and Brands are trying to get free points by pushing opponents OOB.

BTW, did you notice in that match that Pletcher employed, to a lesser degree but still, the left arm drawn towards his left rear side? He did. Go check it out and you'll see it. I think that is fine too. If Desanto is good enough then let him go chase that arm the same way you have to shoot on the leg. If wrestler A knows a guy likes to shoot the far leg, then he can keep that leg back as far away as possible and this is the exact same thing as keeping the left arm as far away as possible. If Desanto is good enough, then let him overcome that tactic. Don't just plead and beg the refs to give you free points. 

I watched this back on the Flo video and couldn't really tell what you were trying to say regarding the arm, but it wasn't the whole video. I do agree that DeSanto was simply shooting Pletcher off in that situation in order to get a stall warning, however, given the current rules, I don't understand how they can distinguish a half shot/push out vs a legitimate shot given the fact that he dropped to his knee and touched Pletcher's leg. The rule needs tweaking. I don't know the right way to do that, so I think the simplest and most objective way to call it is using the push-out. I don't think it will turn into sumo. I think guys will wrestle more in the middle and we'll see more action. At times, guys will take thepush out when they are in a position of disadvantage.

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1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

That is your opinion, LJB, and some Iowa fans agree with you but they are really vested in this sort og thing, LJB. As you can see from this thread, however, not everyone agrees with you. Pletcher did the same thing RBY did, go to ohiowrestling.net and see how many Ohio State fans you can convince that Pletcher was stalling in that match. 

it is not an opinion that a step out rule would solve all of this... it is 100% fact...

and whether or not someone thinks wrestlers running instead of wrestling is actually wrestling is immaterial... there are dummies all over this world... you average people are what makes some of us above average... we need people like you to set the bar low...

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Yeah, but you wanted Cassar dinged for more stalling vs Steveson, and in that match the minute Steveson tried to wrestle Cassar took him down, not the other way around. Your one match doesn't making pushing the opposing wrestler OOB to not be stalling. It is just the circumstances in that one match. There are many examples that work against your argument. In addition to Cassar v. Steveson, the Pletcher Desanto match recently being another one of them. 

I don't remember ever asking for stalling against Cassar, in the first match I thought they both did nothing, but now you're pushing those goalposts.  So am I calling for stalling when Iowa loses or when Iowa plus Gable (whom I love in this scenario?) loses?

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7 minutes ago, Bombermule said:

I watched this back on the Flo video and couldn't really tell what you were trying to say regarding the arm, but it wasn't the whole video. I do agree that DeSanto was simply shooting Pletcher off in that situation in order to get a stall warning, however, given the current rules, I don't understand how they can distinguish a half shot/push out vs a legitimate shot given the fact that he dropped to his knee and touched Pletcher's leg. The rule needs tweaking. I don't know the right way to do that, so I think the simplest and most objective way to call it is using the push-out. I don't think it will turn into sumo. I think guys will wrestle more in the middle and we'll see more action. At times, guys will take thepush out when they are in a position of disadvantage.

I don't currently have the whole Desanto Pletcher match, although I did watch it several times. I do have the entire RBY Desanto match. Watch this match and give me your opinion as to whether or not RBY was not wanting to engage Desanto. I would ask LJB to comment on this match, but I don't any longer give a **** what his opinion is. 

 

Edited by TBar1977

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7 minutes ago, LJB said:

it is not an opinion that a step out rule would solve all of this... it is 100% fact...

and whether or not someone thinks wrestlers running instead of wrestling is actually wrestling is immaterial... there are dummies all over this world... you average people are what makes some of us above average... we need people like you to set the bar low...

You have two problems with this post, LJB. One, I never made a comment one way or another on the step out rule with regards to any of these matches because it simply does not apply. This is college folkstyle wrestling, not free style wrestling. So who is the dummy? The guy who understands that the step out rule doesn't apply to college wrestling, or the guy that argues as if it is applicable? Who is the dummy, dummy? 

Two, You keep saying that wrestlers are running. That is a subjective judgment in 99.9% of these matches, LJB. 

Edited by TBar1977

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1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

You have two problems with this post, LJB. One, I never made a comment one way or another on the step out rule with regards to any of these matches because it simply does not apply. This is college folkstyle wrestling, not free style wrestling. So who is the dummy? The guy who understands that the step out rule doesn't apply to college wrestling, or the guy that argues as if it is applicable? Who is the dummy, dummy? 

Two, You keep saying that wrestlers are running. That is a subjective judgment in 99.9% of these matches. 

i fully understand there is no step out rule... i also fully understand that running away from pressure straight out of bounds is not wrestling... it is running... there are plenty of examples of wrestlers who have learned how to do this one simple thing and also who are not senior level wrestlers...

circle away from the clearly marked out of bounds line...

and yes, backing straight out of bounds is running... how could it not be?

it is running from pressure... it is being totally uncomfortable with being pressured that the only thing you cant think to do is back straight up... it is refusing to engage... it is running... it is inarguable to all but the dummies...

now, i will not argue that it is clearly allowed in the rules of folk because folk rewards not wrestling...

so many examples that are clear to many...

but, it's the way we always have done it so we should keep doing it, right?

reward not wrestling... yeah folk...

 

 

 

dummy...

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1 hour ago, ptz305 said:

Great points OP, but your whole argument is predicated on the notion that Stoll's constant pushing is somehow "wrestling" or "attempting offense." It is not. Pushing in itself is not an offensive move, nor is pushing someone off the mat an attempt to score. It is avoiding wrestling and therefore stalling in itself. 

The act of pushing to create pressure and then taking it away to set up a shot or snap is offense. Pushing non-stop is not. 

Stoll did snap Parris a few times and still backed him out (I'm not saying pushed him out anymore...)

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Hey BomberMule, why are you arguing about a call when the guy you are arguing for won the match!  We get it, you love IOWA WRESTLING...you got like 4 stall calls, sorry you didn't win by stalling out...were you worried about team points? You still wouldn't have beaten PSU or Ohio St. 

Sorry to tell you, the season is over, you'll have to move on. 

Edited by Dairy King

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14 minutes ago, LJB said:

i fully understand there is no step out rule... i also fully understand that running away from pressure straight out of bounds is not wrestling... it is running... there are plenty of examples of wrestlers who have learned how to do this one simple thing and also who are not senior level wrestlers...

circle away from the clearly marked out of bounds line...

and yes, backing straight out of bounds is running... how could it not be?

it is running from pressure... it is being totally uncomfortable with being pressured that the only thing you cant think to do is back straight up... it is refusing to engage... it is running... it is inarguable to all but the dummies...

now, i will not argue that it is clearly allowed in the rules of folk because folk rewards not wrestling...

so many examples that are clear to many...

but, it's the way we always have done it so we should keep doing it, right?

reward not wrestling... yeah folk...

dummy...

When the wrestler is holding ground, not backing up, and the opposing wrestler is pushing, not wrestling, dummy LJB. Go ask Ben Askren. He agrees with my take, not yours. 

Complaining about what officials do is for losers, dummy LJB. That goes for anyone who constantly whines about officials. They do that because they aren't winning under the present rules as established or they or their guy just aren't the best out there. That's why I don't complain when PSU wrestlers lose. They want to win, then go win. Don't almost win, then complain about the officiating. God knows enough people do that already. Don't be a complainer like they are. Just wrestle your best. That is all you can do. If you win, then you win. If you lose, get back to work on your game and come back the better wrestler. Just don't be a whiner. That is for losers, dummy LJB. 

Edited by TBar1977

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4 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

When the wrestler is holding ground, not backing up, and the opposing wrestler is pushing, not wrestling, dummy LJB. Go ask Ben Askren. He agrees with my take, not yours. 

Complaining about what officials do is for losers, dumyy, LJB. 

if a wrestler is holding ground and all his opponent is doing is pushing, then that wrestler has a myriad of options that are readily available to them... big move options... to your back options... assuming all that their opponent is actually doing is "pushing"

here is the deal, it isn't just pushing and only a dummy would say that and the only reason i can explain for that is their guy got totally controlled and was not capable of doing anything about it...

askren doesn't complain about iowa's forward pressure... he complains about their forward pressure not being coupled with shots... which, is valid to a degree, but, when looked at from the angle that it is very hard to take a shot on someone running backward as fast as they can it becomes a little more convoluted...  

and askren is a known iowa hater so that has to be factored in... anyone not a dummy understands that...

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3 minutes ago, LJB said:

if a wrestler is holding ground and all his opponent is doing is pushing, then that wrestler has a myriad of options that are readily available to them... big move options... to your back options... assuming all that their opponent is actually doing is "pushing"

askren doesn't complain about iowa's forward pressure... he complains about their forward pressure not being coupled with shots... which, is valid to a degree, but, when looked at from the angle that it is very hard to take a shot on someone running backward as fast as they can it becomes a little more convoluted...  

and askren is a known iowa hater so that has to be factored in... anyone not a dummy understands that...

To your bolded points, both wrestlers have options. I already gave a few options Stoll could employ and when he is employing them he is not stalling. When he isn't, then straight pushing or forward pressure if you want to call it that is not by itself anything except pushing for pushing's sake. It may be to tire a guy out, which is reward enough by itself, but if he is trying to get a point for it then that point is not warranted. That is what I am complaining about. Pushing i.e. forward pressure without shots.

He is no fan of Iowa for probably the same reasons I'm not a fan. 

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2 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

To your bolded points, both wrestlers have options. I already gave a few options Stoll could employ and when he is employing them he is not stalling. When he isn't, then straight pushing or forward pressure if you want to call it that is not by itself anything except pushing for pushing's sake. It may be to tire a guy out, which is reward enough by itself, but if he is trying to get a point for it then that point is not warranted. That is what I am complaining about. Pushing i.e. forward pressure without shots.

He is no fan of Iowa for probably the same reasons I'm not a fan. 

plenty of wrestlers stood their ground against stoll and forced him to do other things... this goes for every other wrestler that decides to actually wrestle somoene who is coming forward instead of choosing to run straight backwards... it is not up to stoll or anyone to make someone wrestle you... they want to run straight backwards at the first sign of pressure then that is on them and should rightly be recognized for what it is and that is running... they should be hit for stalling and run out of the building like desantos first opponent that refused to wrestle...

there is an out of bounds line put in place for a reason, yes?

it is to mark the field of competition that you should be forced to participate within...

it doesnt take a senior level wrestler to understand that...

just someone not a dummy...

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27 minutes ago, LJB said:

plenty of wrestlers stood their ground against stoll and forced him to do other things... this goes for every other wrestler that decides to actually wrestle somoene who is coming forward instead of choosing to run straight backwards... it is not up to stoll or anyone to make someone wrestle you... they want to run straight backwards at the first sign of pressure then that is on them and should rightly be recognized for what it is and that is running... they should be hit for stalling and run out of the building like desantos first opponent that refused to wrestle...

there is an out of bounds line put in place for a reason, yes?

it is to mark the field of competition that you should be forced to participate within...

it doesnt take a senior level wrestler to understand that...

just someone not a dummy...

You are alibying Stoll for himself not taking shots, while wanting to stall point his opponent for trying (unsuccessfully, but still) to not get pushed out of bounds. If Stoll wants that point against his opponent for stalling, then he should take shots. Even then that doesn't mean the other guy is stalling, and who I root for has nothing to do with it.

Someone stated Mehki Lewis was engaged in "high level defensive stalling" once he got the lead vs Cenzo. I disagree with that assertion. You listening? I disagree with something that would have helped the PSU wrestler, a desired stall call against Mehki Lewis. Why? Because Lewis was engaged. He stayed right in front of Cenzo. Cenzo's back was toward center mat and Lewis toward the edge, but so what? Cenzo even got to his leg in that second period and walked him out of bounds. A fan fixated on the officials helping his wrestler out would call the fact that Lewis hopped out of bounds stalling. But that still is NOT stalling imo because Lewis is smartly defending there. It is Cenzo's responsibility to score there, not the responsibility of the official to bail him out. 

Stall calls are not too few in this sport right now, they are often too many. I will give you a clear example. In the video above RBY's ride on Desanto in period 3 lasts about 9 seconds. The two of them end up on their feet near the edge of the mat. The action of Desanto trying to escape took them to that spot near the edge of the mat.  The two wrestlers end up in arm and collar ties for another 30 seconds without them moving more than 7 or 8 feet laterally along the edge. Neither of them are stalling. Neither are not engaged. The ref stopped the action and called RBY for stalling and you can audibly hear the official state "Warning! Hanging on the side". What? The action took them there. Sure, RBY could have circled, but he wasn't running, failing to engage, or otherwise stalling and the action didn't even go OOB. Just reset them if you want to, but making that call there against one wrestler when the other isn't himself doing anything is silly. Just adopt Sumo rules if you are going to do that. 

If a step out rule applied there, which it doesn't. But if it did, then wrestlers would train specifically for the step out defense. They'd engage differently because of that rule, which is fine. But don't apply push out officiating logic to a non push out folk match. That is b.s. 

Edited by TBar1977

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2 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

I never stated Parris was trying to score in the specific position he was in, but I did not view what he was doing as running either. Stoll is just too big for him, and Stoll is far, far better at pushing than he is. Stoll could have tried to shoot instead of push, he could have tried to arm drag from his russian tie, of get to a high single from that tie. But all he did for a long while was push. It goes both ways. 

Desanto tried the same thing with Pletcher, and when Desanto was unable to get away with just pushing, because the official warned him, the match changed in Pletcher's favor. Not Desanto's favor. 

Being smaller doesn't excuse backing out of bounds and refusing to engage anymore than being slow excuses Stoll from having to try to score TDs.  Being small is unfortunate, but going straight backwards from the center of the mat is the classic definition of stalling and going straight out of bounds is the new definition of stalling.  Parris was called repeatedly because he stalled the whole match.  

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5 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

The fact that Wood was able to stay in the center of the mat has nothing to do with Parris. Nothing at all. It  is a red herring. 

Pushing is pushing, but its not wrestling and you don't reward less athletic wrestlers simply because they can push someone in a straight line. And when a wrestler does this and actually LOOKS FOR a stalling call, that tells you all you need to know about which wrestler is truly stalling. It is the guy pushing. 

What wrestling technique was parris trying to do?  He could stay there and face the music or he could back up and not get scored on. He made his choice.  

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With regard to RBY stalling discussion is pretty much yes it is, no it's not. And repeat. And repeat. And ....

 

Bottom line is that fantasy stalling calls for denying the arm are all that exist so far. The actual match evidence is that RBY will not be called for stalling as long as he generates offense and does not continuously retreat.

 

Unless there is a rule change, mandating arm position is destined to join other fantasies in the bad forum ideas dustbin of history.

 

As far as Stoll pushing goes, I don't have a dog in that fight.

 

 

 

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, swoopdown said:

With regard to RBY stalling discussion is pretty much yes it is, no it's not. And repeat. And repeat. And ....

 

Bottom line is that fantasy stalling calls for denying the arm are all that exist so far. The actual match evidence is that RBY will not be called for stalling as long as he generates offense and does not continuously retreat.

 

Unless there is a rule change, mandating arm position is destined to join other fantasies in the bad forum ideas dustbin of history.

 

As far as Stoll pushing goes, I don't have a dog in that fight.

 

 

 

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

I didn't read the whole thread.  Are there really people who think holding your arm back is stalling? 

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