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More deserving of being a 4-timer

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On 4/6/2019 at 3:55 PM, BigTimeFan said:

This means Snyder and Ruth for starters.

They're great but I'm a Mays fan!

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You can have Duke Snyder and even Babe Ruth as well as Willie Mays.

I always liked Ted Williams, but my favorite all time is Mickey Mantle.

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On 4/6/2019 at 8:15 AM, BadgerMon said:

Watch Kemp's freshman final

YOU decide....(and I'm a friend/fan of both) this match was decided in OT by ref's decision ( 2 to 1).

 

Edited by BadgerMon

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5 minutes ago, BadgerMon said:

YOU decide....(and I'm a friend/fan of both) this match was decided in OT by ref's decision ( 2 to 1).

 

Didn't Kemp get a TD? Still he seemed much more offensive. I think he got robbed.

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On 4/5/2019 at 11:03 PM, Mokoma said:

Nickal was like 7-2 against the guy who kept him from being a 4 timer, I would take him over Ruth, who didn’t even make the semi finals as a freshman.

Ruth UTTERLY dominated Amuch the next time they wrestled, 12-1.  That made it really hard to doubt(and I did doubt it when it happened) that injury was a factor the 1st time they wrestled.  Also, Ruth was blitzkrieging guys like Lewnes, Henrich and Bennett that season.

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11 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Ruth UTTERLY dominated Amuch the next time they wrestled, 12-1.  That made it really hard to doubt(and I did doubt it when it happened) that injury was a factor the 1st time they wrestled.  Also, Ruth was blitzkrieging guys like Lewnes, Henrich and Bennett that season.

Agreed Ruth was amazing and could have won but he would have still had to beat a tough semi final opponent and then Reader in the finals which was no guarantee.  He lost to Letts that season by quite a bit so he definitely wasn’t unbeatable.

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On 4/5/2019 at 10:38 PM, WillieBoy said:

First go back to any of the three time guys with perfect records.

Then I would go Ruth as when he was interested he was hell on wheels. Problem was he seemed to get bored easily and almost phoned it in.

I would love for you to give us a few examples of matches when Ruth phoned it in ... 

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If Zain took a redshirt rather than jumping right in his true freshman year, he would have had Tsirtsis to deal with in the 149 finals his RS freshman year and he handled him every time they wrestled. He could have easily been a 4xer. 

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1 hour ago, PSUMike said:

If Zain took a redshirt rather than jumping right in his true freshman year, he would have had Tsirtsis to deal with in the 149 finals his RS freshman year and he handled him every time they wrestled. He could have easily been a 4xer. 

You do know Tsirtis has beaten Zain right?  In fact, it was easily I believe.

If we are doing "if's" then Pico could have kept Zain from even being a multiple time champion.

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8 hours ago, Mokoma said:

Agreed Ruth was amazing and could have won but he would have still had to beat a tough semi final opponent and then Reader in the finals which was no guarantee.  He lost to Letts that season by quite a bit so he definitely wasn’t unbeatable.

Ruth lost 9-4 to Letts in the first week of December of his freshman year. 

No one disputes that he was not a shoo in for the championship that year, particularly against Reader. 

All that has been said is that Ruth only lost one NCAA match and it was one where anyone who watched it could tell that a Ruth injury or injuries materially affected the match and affected his chances to win a match that be was winning before his injury timeout.

The fact that Ruth absolutely destroyed the guy who he injury defaulted to in that match when they met in the next NCAA seems more relevant as further context, in addition to what the video shows, than a regular decision loss in the third week of the season.

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1 hour ago, PSUMike said:

Tsirtsis never beat Zain in college (they only wrestled once and Zain majored him) and Pico didn't wrestle folkstyle after the age of 14 so you're point (or lack there of) is asinine. 

Correct all around.

Tsirtsis not only didn't defeat Retherford in folkstyke in college; Retherford destroyed him. 15-5, not even as close as that. Six takedowns. Very painful to watch as a Tsirtsis fan.

I would say that I wouldn't see true freshman smaller Zain as automatic over 2014 Tsirtsis (Zain true freshman year). Tsirtsis was a different guy that year and well locked in at both Big Ten and NCAA. 

On the other hand, and agreeing with your basic point, I think that Zain if he redshirted and bulked up in 2015 would have been the most likely 149 champ in 2015, with him bigger/stronger/better and Tsirtsis not quite as sharp as his first year.  BTW Tsirtsis didn't win or even make the finals that year.  Houdashelt beat Habat after Tsirtsis lost to Habat in the semis on a tough call as his growing conservatism finally caught up with him. Never understood why he never wrestled as aggressively again as he did in 2014 big tens.

Don't really see the point in the Pico argument. Simply irrelevant since we're talking about a guy who never wrestled a college match. And anyway his wins over Zain were in a different style without mat wrestling, something that Zain was rather good at. Such as when he tech'd Micah Jordan after being taken down twice. And tech'd Lavion Mayes after being blown away by a blast double to open the match.

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9 minutes ago, drag it said:

Correct all around.

Tsirtsis not only didn't defeat Retherford in folkstyke in college; Retherford destroyed him. 15-5, not even as close as that. Six takedowns. Very painful to watch as a Tsirtsis fan.

I would say that I wouldn't see true freshman smaller Zain as automatic over 2014 Tsirtsis (Zain true freshman year). Tsirtsis was a different guy that year and well locked in at both Big Ten and NCAA. 

On the other hand, and agreeing with your basic point, I think that Zain if he redshirted and bulked up in 2015 would have been the most likely 149 champ in 2015, with him bigger/stronger/better and Tsirtsis not quite as sharp as his first year.  BTW Tsirtsis didn't win or even make the finals that year.  Houdashelt beat Habat after Tsirtsis lost to Habat in the semis on a tough call as his growing conservatism finally caught up with him. Never understood why he never wrestled as aggressively again as he did in 2014 big tens.

Don't really see the point in the Pico argument. Simply irrelevant since we're talking about a guy who never wrestled a college match. And anyway his wins over Zain were in a different style without mat wrestling, something that Zain was rather good at. Such as when he tech'd Micah Jordan after being taken down twice. And tech'd Lavion Mayes after being blown away by a blast double to open the match.

Looks like I got my years mixed up. Good call on Houdashelt. I never really saw enough of him to really be able to say if a RS FR Zain would handle him or not but given how Zain looked out of RS, I don't think it's a stretch to say he would have. 

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1 minute ago, PSUMike said:

Looks like I got my years mixed up. Good call on Houdashelt. I never really saw enough of him to really be able to say if a RS FR Zain would handle him or not but given how Zain looked out of RS, I don't think it's a stretch to say he would have. 

I would see redshirt freshman Zain as the favorite in that field but Houdashelt was a strong dude so would probably have been more challenging than for 2016 third year out of high school bulked up bully Zain.

I think Zain gets some props here in the spirit of the topic for lessening his chance at winning four (and possibly undefeated, do I have that right?) and wrestling as a true freshman -- in the weight class of a four timer (who he did manage to beat once with the help of a bus) -- in a year when the team needed his points.

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13 hours ago, PSUMike said:

Tsirtsis never beat Zain in college (they only wrestled once and Zain majored him) and Pico didn't wrestle folkstyle after the age of 14 so you're point (or lack there of) is asinine. 

My point was that Tsirtis has beaten Zain. You are the one who claimed he never did.  

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