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Bye to Finals X Greatly Diminishes US Open

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Returning medal winners should have a bye to the US Open Finals, not to Finals X. If medal winner gets beat at Open, no-one should jump directly to Finals X.

 

US Open would be such a bigger event if it was done this way.

 

Really dumb of USA Wrestling to do it this way.

 

 

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I actually kinda like your idea, but I wouldn’t say that makes the way it’s done now is “really dumb”. Lots of really really good things can use, and often do get, improvement. Anyway, one thing I may change is that the winner of the open gets the bye to final X no matter what. Team trials is then an 8 man bracket with the remaining seven placers and one wild card. You have to compete in the open to be eligible for the wild card. 

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I actually kinda like your idea, but I wouldn’t say that makes the way it’s done now is “really dumb”. Lots of really really good things can use, and often do get, improvement. Anyway, one thing I may change is that the winner of the open gets the bye to final X no matter what. Team trials is then an 8 man bracket with the remaining seven placers and one wild card. You have to compete in the open to be eligible for the wild card. 


It’s really dumb from the perspective that we no longer even have a single (same day/weekend) domestic event where all the top guys compete.

It’s hard enough to keep people excited/interested. The current structure makes it even more difficult.

I’m ok with the tweak to my idea that you suggested, but I prefer the way I described it.


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Depends what your goal is. 

I want the best possible world team. Secondary to that is having better domestic events. 

The current set up I think gives us the best world team. Even prior to FinalX, medalists didn’t have to go to the Open

i watch the Open every year and would want better matches, but not at the expense of world results. 

St the weights where we don’t have a medalist, the Open has never been more important. 

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4 hours ago, Housebuye said:

......

The current set up I think gives us the best world team.

........

Disagree, current (and previous) process allows for a medalist not to compete again until the Finals X (or WTT finals in previous format) after winning their medal.

Being required to compete in at least one (1) additional event (the US Open) to maintain their bye (if they win that one bout) ensures the wrestler is still able to compete at a high level.

I believe the suggested change will better ensure we have the best guys on the team AND will greatly enhance the importance of the US Open.  IMO, a meaningful (at all weights) US Open benefits the sport as well.

 

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IMO I do think that going straight into the final X should not be allowed without wrestling any matches since the previous world or Olympics.  However, I don't think it should have to be domestically.  I think as long as they compete, even if internationally then they should have their final X spot. At least one major tournament. That would be equal to the one freestyle  tournament that most guys in the US open wrestle in the year that don't travel overseas (University Nationals). The only exception would be medical.  A tore ACL for example that kept them from competing then they still get their bye. Our elite guys who compete internationally and winning world medals are at the disadvantage otherwise.  Every person in the country only has to prepare for them with nothing to lose.  Our top guys are focused on international competition.  They shouldn't have to focus on every person in the bracket that they might face in the open. We have had better success I think as a country since we started giving the world medalist byes to the final match.

 

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17 hours ago, scramble said:

IMO I do think that going straight into the final X should not be allowed without wrestling any matches since the previous world or Olympics.  However, I don't think it should have to be domestically.  I think as long as they compete, even if internationally then they should have their final X spot. At least one major tournament. That would be equal to the one freestyle  tournament that most guys in the US open wrestle in the year that don't travel overseas (University Nationals). The only exception would be medical.  A tore ACL for example that kept them from competing then they still get their bye. Our elite guys who compete internationally and winning world medals are at the disadvantage otherwise.  Every person in the country only has to prepare for them with nothing to lose.  Our top guys are focused on international competition.  They shouldn't have to focus on every person in the bracket that they might face in the open. We have had better success I think as a country since we started giving the world medalist byes to the final match.

 

Adding rules like this doesn’t really work. What’s an injury? 

If these guys decide to sit out all the way to final X, I trust they know what’s best. Realistically they would only do this for an injury or a major life event anyways (marriage, baby, etc). Otherwise they will enter an event.

They want to keep improving. 

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6 hours ago, Housebuye said:

Adding rules like this doesn’t really work. What’s an injury? 

If these guys decide to sit out all the way to final X, I trust they know what’s best. Realistically they would only do this for an injury or a major life event anyways (marriage, baby, etc). Otherwise they will enter an event.

They want to keep improving. 

I agree for the most part.  Especially with the "what's and injury" I can agree with that point. My response is mainly related to having to wrestle the open.  I don't think any US events should be required.  I get the theory of our best guys should compete in the open fir the good if the sport, but again, it is in theory.  In reality it will have little to no bearing of bringing a fan base because most people aren't gonna go just because they are in the tournament. I don't think the international tournament requirement would be bad.  I guess because I feel we have been sending more guys over seas and it seems to be correlating to our better performances.  I would much rather see our guys wrestle internationally than locally.

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I believe that the concept of giving a "bye" all the way to Final X for a returning medalist does not produce the best team.  

Invoking Final X does make things better, as the previous challengers were at a severe disadvantage. 

Instead, I would like to see everyone work for it, with the identical set of barriers, every single year.  It's a knock-down, drag-out kind of "fight", but yes... I do fully believe that our "best" must continuously be put through the wringer to stay the best. 

I know i'm in the minority, so I don't need to hear the bashing or whatever.  But... if you want "fairness", this is infinitely more "fair", as the cream will ultimately rise to the top.

Question:  Is there any other aspect of life, or any other sport, that returns its top star, winner, champion, etc. and places them in the finals automatically?  I'd like to know if so, as I'm wracking my brain and can't think of a single one.  Spelling Bee?  No.  NFL/NBA/MLB... no.  Boxing (not the same animal).   

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1 hour ago, treep2000 said:

I believe that the concept of giving a "bye" all the way to Final X for a returning medalist does not produce the best team.  

Invoking Final X does make things better, as the previous challengers were at a severe disadvantage. 

Instead, I would like to see everyone work for it, with the identical set of barriers, every single year.  It's a knock-down, drag-out kind of "fight", but yes... I do fully believe that our "best" must continuously be put through the wringer to stay the best. 

I know i'm in the minority, so I don't need to hear the bashing or whatever.  But... if you want "fairness", this is infinitely more "fair", as the cream will ultimately rise to the top.

Question:  Is there any other aspect of life, or any other sport, that returns its top star, winner, champion, etc. and places them in the finals automatically?  I'd like to know if so, as I'm wracking my brain and can't think of a single one.  Spelling Bee?  No.  NFL/NBA/MLB... no.  Boxing (not the same animal).   

To your point, boxing is much much more similar animal than the other sports you identified (one on one combat sport, weight categories) and at the highest level that's exactly what happens.  The champ doesn't have to fight his way back to a title shot, he/she's in....a bit of a stretch I know but....

I like how it is now.  I like that a returning medalist gets the spot in the final. I believe that to be an earned privilege.  And with the way the final X is now, whoever makes it through the team trials is at no disadvantage whatsoever, so I don't believe it hurts the team we put out on the mat at all.

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On 4/6/2019 at 7:09 AM, Lurker said:

I actually kinda like your idea, but I wouldn’t say that makes the way it’s done now is “really dumb”. Lots of really really good things can use, and often do get, improvement. Anyway, one thing I may change is that the winner of the open gets the bye to final X no matter what. Team trials is then an 8 man bracket with the remaining seven placers and one wild card. You have to compete in the open to be eligible for the wild card. 

So, Dake and Taylor are both going to the Open.  If they win the Open they automatically get a bye to the Final X, but they already have that spot, so they wouldn't have to wrestle since they are the ones already holding it?

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

To your point, boxing is much much more similar animal than the other sports you identified (one on one combat sport, weight categories) and at the highest level that's exactly what happens.  The champ doesn't have to fight his way back to a title shot, he/she's in....a bit of a stretch I know but....

I like how it is now.  I like that a returning medalist gets the spot in the final. I believe that to be an earned privilege.  And with the way the final X is now, whoever makes it through the team trials is at no disadvantage whatsoever, so I don't believe it hurts the team we put out on the mat at all.

I pointed out boxing as being different because of the lack of a same day, multiple match tournament format.  Imagine being the 2nd ranked boxer, winning four boxing matches over two days, and then having to face the reigning champ who has been resting and training appropriately.  Challengers thus have distinct disadvantage.   Wrestling is similar.  Being US Open champ is grueling, only to have to face a very well rested reigning champ who didn't have to run the same gauntlet.  

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1 hour ago, Katie said:

I believe the winner of the US Open gets a bye to Final X unless a returning medalist has already accepted a bye. 

The returning medalist can wait until after the US Open to accept/reject their bye.

 

Dake's situation this year is one where it seems to make sense to wait until after he competes at the US Open to make his decision.

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1 hour ago, Glane18 said:

So, Dake and Taylor are both going to the Open.  If they win the Open they automatically get a bye to the Final X, but they already have that spot, so they wouldn't have to wrestle since they are the ones already holding it?

Are you saying wouldn’t have to wrestle in Final X? 

Edited by Lurker

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1 hour ago, treep2000 said:

I pointed out boxing as being different because of the lack of a same day, multiple match tournament format.  Imagine being the 2nd ranked boxer, winning four boxing matches over two days, and then having to face the reigning champ who has been resting and training appropriately.  Challengers thus have distinct disadvantage.   Wrestling is similar.  Being US Open champ is grueling, only to have to face a very well rested reigning champ who didn't have to run the same gauntlet.  

And in the old format I very much agree with that, although I still wasn’t against the old format. As it pertains to this though, there’s enough separation between determining challenger of final x and the event itself that it’s not at all a distinct disadvantage, as it relates to that three match series. It begs the old question in the World Series or nba finals, where one team sweeps and the other had to go seven games, which is better...the extra time or coming in on a roll?  It could go ten different ways ten different times. 

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The Russians put together one of the most dominant performances at Worlds last year, a tournament that saw us put together one of our best team performances ever and still take second.  The Russians aren't making Sadulaev wrestle in their nationals.  What's the point?  They send guys to ranking tournaments over the year and then monitor them very closely at their training camps after their nationals and coaches decide who to send.  The results speak volumes.

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I agree with fans who said US open is deluted tournament. I used to go every year to watch it, when top wrestlers competed. Not anymore. No real competition and no true champions. The fans are robbed of the true fun. This competition doesn't mean anything to fans.

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