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treep2000

Adult Wrestling Clubs (Master)

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I'm interested in finding an open mat to roll around, relive my youth, get in shape, and potentially compete in masters tournaments.  I'm already doing so in BJJ, and it seems that the "other" martial arts cater to all ages to a much greater degree than my beloved wrestling.  How do I best find a place that allows mid life crisis aged guys to practice and roll?  My Google searches are largely coming up empty handed.  Thoughts?

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........ golf....... until that urge passes...........(totally kidding and tongue in cheek- - - if you are young enough and have good neck and joint health, get after it. I competed in St. Louis in the Folkstyle Nationals at the age of 39- - - it was a blast!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Edited by cornercoach

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BJJ is a bad comparison.  Wrestling is so much more physically taxing it is beyond comparison.  i would say the gap is more extreme than observing middle aged men playing pick up basketball and becoming upset at the lack of masters level tackle football opportunities.

For all of the issues with our sport, I just don't believe keeping our athletes competing on a recreational level after the passing of their prime is one of them.  We would be much better served to strategize retaining these former wrestlers as fans, referees, or contributors in some way.

You are lucky, in the twilight of your career, to still have the physical latitude and enthusiasm to continue training.  I am sure a local high school or club program would welcome your knowledge and skills as a training partner.  Plus you could kill two birds with one stone using this opportunity to both help kids and condition yourself for Veterans level competition, which is not as rare as dedicated veterans level training opportunities.

Best of luck.

 

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8 hours ago, JHRoseWrestling said:

BJJ is a bad comparison.  Wrestling is so much more physically taxing it is beyond comparison.  i would say the gap is more extreme than observing middle aged men playing pick up basketball and becoming upset at the lack of masters level tackle football opportunities.

For all of the issues with our sport, I just don't believe keeping our athletes competing on a recreational level after the passing of their prime is one of them.  We would be much better served to strategize retaining these former wrestlers as fans, referees, or contributors in some way.

You are lucky, in the twilight of your career, to still have the physical latitude and enthusiasm to continue training.  I am sure a local high school or club program would welcome your knowledge and skills as a training partner.  Plus you could kill two birds with one stone using this opportunity to both help kids and condition yourself for Veterans level competition, which is not as rare as dedicated veterans level training opportunities.

Best of luck.

 

Thanks, but I'm saddened to hear your perspective.  Training BJJ has numerous similarities.  From "the takedown", where there are consistencies with both single leg and double leg takedowns, to "top control" or side mount/full mount, the types of movements, techniques, body positioning, "pressure", etc. are all incredibly similar.  

I'd love to have a routine whereby I could train BJJ on night one, then rest, then night three, wrestle, then rest, then night 5, BJJ, then etc. etc. etc.  A veterans or masters level tournament would be icing on the cake.  My question... for these Masters/Veterans tournaments, where do they train?  Are these guys all just coaches and they train with their HS/College kids?  

I'm not suggesting that I'm looking for the same rigor, but would still like to have the ability to go at my own speed, drill, have some go-lives, maybe a couple practice matches, and use it as a way to keep in amazing shape.  The BJJ is absolutely not a basketball to football analogy.  Wrestling and BJJ are both grappling, and are effectively "sister" styles.  

Maybe this is a business opportunity then?  Set up a wrestling club that caters to ALL ages?  Require a monthly membership fee.  Provide "rewards" or "acknowledgement" for sticking to it, learning it, and mastering technique (like stripes and belts in martial arts).  Partner with USA Wrestling and actually be a "feeder" to all ages tournaments.  I dunno… the fact that this is so difficult to find is yet another example as to why wrestling continues to be overlooked as a serious sport in the context of not only the "stick n' ball" sports of the USA, but at the International Level as well.  Saddening.

Edit:  Context for this analogy.  

Wrestling is to Flag Football as BJJ is to Tackle Football.  Wrestling, and our current rule sets for folk, free, and Greco, award points for attaining the position of dominance (repeatedly) or pinning the opponents shoulders to the mat.  Physical injury may occur, but it is not the INTENT.   Wrestling is designed for "Sport", and in a street fight, comes in handy, but isn't really the style that "wins" unless you strike or throw in a submission (which is not in wrestling).  BJJ is designed for self-defense first, and sport 2nd, thus physical injury IS the intent.  The rule set awards points for attaining the position of dominance (repeatedly) or by submitting the opponent through a multitude of different methods, i.e. actual choking/strangulation or by torqueing the joints to a point whereby dislocation or breakage is prevented by the "tapout".  The physicality of BJJ is intense, so I'm unsure as to how/why you posture that BJJ is more like Basketball.  :-)

Edited by treep2000

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In Houston, Texas there is a club called Paradigm Training Center originally started by some former Oklahoma State wrestlers.   They have classes for kickboxing, BJJ, fitness, MMA judo, and wrestling (folkstyle, freestyle, and greco).  There are wrestling classes where high school, college, and older wrestlers can come and work out.  It's great.  They have technique classes often followed by live goes (if you want) on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 7:30pm to 9pm.  

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5 hours ago, treep2000 said:

Thanks, but I'm saddened to hear your perspective.  Training BJJ has numerous similarities.  From "the takedown", where there are consistencies with both single leg and double leg takedowns, to "top control" or side mount/full mount, the types of movements, techniques, body positioning, "pressure", etc. are all incredibly similar.  

I'd love to have a routine whereby I could train BJJ on night one, then rest, then night three, wrestle, then rest, then night 5, BJJ, then etc. etc. etc.  A veterans or masters level tournament would be icing on the cake.  My question... for these Masters/Veterans tournaments, where do they train?  Are these guys all just coaches and they train with their HS/College kids?  

I'm not suggesting that I'm looking for the same rigor, but would still like to have the ability to go at my own speed, drill, have some go-lives, maybe a couple practice matches, and use it as a way to keep in amazing shape.  The BJJ is absolutely not a basketball to football analogy.  Wrestling and BJJ are both grappling, and are effectively "sister" styles.  

Maybe this is a business opportunity then?  Set up a wrestling club that caters to ALL ages?  Require a monthly membership fee.  Provide "rewards" or "acknowledgement" for sticking to it, learning it, and mastering technique (like stripes and belts in martial arts).  Partner with USA Wrestling and actually be a "feeder" to all ages tournaments.  I dunno… the fact that this is so difficult to find is yet another example as to why wrestling continues to be overlooked as a serious sport in the context of not only the "stick n' ball" sports of the USA, but at the International Level as well.  Saddening.

Edit:  Context for this analogy.  

Wrestling is to Flag Football as BJJ is to Tackle Football.  Wrestling, and our current rule sets for folk, free, and Greco, award points for attaining the position of dominance (repeatedly) or pinning the opponents shoulders to the mat.  Physical injury may occur, but it is not the INTENT.   Wrestling is designed for "Sport", and in a street fight, comes in handy, but isn't really the style that "wins" unless you strike or throw in a submission (which is not in wrestling).  BJJ is designed for self-defense first, and sport 2nd, thus physical injury IS the intent.  The rule set awards points for attaining the position of dominance (repeatedly) or by submitting the opponent through a multitude of different methods, i.e. actual choking/strangulation or by torqueing the joints to a point whereby dislocation or breakage is prevented by the "tapout".  The physicality of BJJ is intense, so I'm unsure as to how/why you posture that BJJ is more like Basketball.  :-)

It looks like we've both wrestled and done BJJ at relatively high levels, and have a drastic difference of opinion on whether the tax on the body is comparable between the two.  You sound like one tough hombre.  I don't think most adult bodies will hold up to recreational wrestling training, at least not to the point where the fitness and enjoyment benefits aren't outweighed by the discomfort of minor injury and soreness...  which is why many wrestlers transition to BJJ in their later years.  Not because of a lack of wrestling opportunity, but because they find BJJ more physically sustainable.  I understand that there will be outliers and exceptions to this, and you are probably one of those.

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12 hours ago, treep2000 said:

Thanks, but I'm saddened to hear your perspective.  Training BJJ has numerous similarities.  From "the takedown", where there are consistencies with both single leg and double leg takedowns, to "top control" or side mount/full mount, the types of movements, techniques, body positioning, "pressure", etc. are all incredibly similar.  

I'd love to have a routine whereby I could train BJJ on night one, then rest, then night three, wrestle, then rest, then night 5, BJJ, then etc. etc. etc.  A veterans or masters level tournament would be icing on the cake.  My question... for these Masters/Veterans tournaments, where do they train?  Are these guys all just coaches and they train with their HS/College kids?  

I'm not suggesting that I'm looking for the same rigor, but would still like to have the ability to go at my own speed, drill, have some go-lives, maybe a couple practice matches, and use it as a way to keep in amazing shape.  The BJJ is absolutely not a basketball to football analogy.  Wrestling and BJJ are both grappling, and are effectively "sister" styles.  

Maybe this is a business opportunity then?  Set up a wrestling club that caters to ALL ages?  Require a monthly membership fee.  Provide "rewards" or "acknowledgement" for sticking to it, learning it, and mastering technique (like stripes and belts in martial arts).  Partner with USA Wrestling and actually be a "feeder" to all ages tournaments.  I dunno… the fact that this is so difficult to find is yet another example as to why wrestling continues to be overlooked as a serious sport in the context of not only the "stick n' ball" sports of the USA, but at the International Level as well.  Saddening.

Edit:  Context for this analogy.  

Wrestling is to Flag Football as BJJ is to Tackle Football.  Wrestling, and our current rule sets for folk, free, and Greco, award points for attaining the position of dominance (repeatedly) or pinning the opponents shoulders to the mat.  Physical injury may occur, but it is not the INTENT.   Wrestling is designed for "Sport", and in a street fight, comes in handy, but isn't really the style that "wins" unless you strike or throw in a submission (which is not in wrestling).  BJJ is designed for self-defense first, and sport 2nd, thus physical injury IS the intent.  The rule set awards points for attaining the position of dominance (repeatedly) or by submitting the opponent through a multitude of different methods, i.e. actual choking/strangulation or by torqueing the joints to a point whereby dislocation or breakage is prevented by the "tapout".  The physicality of BJJ is intense, so I'm unsure as to how/why you posture that BJJ is more like Basketball.  :-)

All the wrestlers who do BJJ recreationally I know call BJJ wrestler’ golf, as you can do it without the much larger physical demands of wrestling. 

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On 4/6/2019 at 11:03 PM, treep2000 said:

A lot of people say that... At my BJJ studio, about 30% are over 40 and there are a handful of both men and women that are over 60 that are rolling and kicking the 20 year olds butts.  Wrestling can and should be as accommodating.  

There are women in their 60s that are kicking 20 year old butts?  Seriously?

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2 hours ago, jchapman said:

There are women in their 60s that are kicking 20 year old butts?  Seriously?

Yes.  It blew me away.  There are a couple "grandma's" (and yes, they are in incredible shape) whipping up on some younger guys and gals both.  The first person I met when I first joined was a gentleman named "Rocky".  He'd been doing BJJ for ~6 years, and is now 66.  When he shook my hand the first time, I thought he was going to break my hand.  

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13 hours ago, jcjcjc said:

All the wrestlers who do BJJ recreationally I know call BJJ wrestler’ golf, as you can do it without the much larger physical demands of wrestling. 

Agreed.  But... if there were a club to "drill" wrestling for guys and gals that are 30-XXX years of age, we could also make wrestling (at those ages) much less physically demanding.  As now having done both in my career, in the world of grappling, I view (interchangeably) as Wrestling as the "Yin" and BJJ as the "Yang".  They complement each other greatly.  

Imagine how much more approachable the entire sport would be if you could have a club that is ACCEPTING of all ages, and approaches the sport with reverance and with the human body, mind, and soul's well-being at the center?  I love BJJ now that I've been sucked into the lifestyle, but my first love is wrestling, and to NOT be able to effectively continue it is maddening.

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3 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

Agreed.  But... if there were a club to "drill" wrestling for guys and gals that are 30-XXX years of age, we could also make wrestling (at those ages) much less physically demanding.  As now having done both in my career, in the world of grappling, I view (interchangeably) as Wrestling as the "Yin" and BJJ as the "Yang".  They complement each other greatly.  

Imagine how much more approachable the entire sport would be if you could have a club that is ACCEPTING of all ages, and approaches the sport with reverance and with the human body, mind, and soul's well-being at the center?  I love BJJ now that I've been sucked into the lifestyle, but my first love is wrestling, and to NOT be able to effectively continue it is maddening.

Maybe we can start handing out colorful belts for wrestling participation.

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8 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

Yes.  It blew me away.  There are a couple "grandma's" (and yes, they are in incredible shape) whipping up on some younger guys and gals both.  The first person I met when I first joined was a gentleman named "Rocky".  He'd been doing BJJ for ~6 years, and is now 66.  When he shook my hand the first time, I thought he was going to break my hand.  

If Grandmas are kicking the butts of 20 year old men, then why are there age, gender, and weight classes?

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Just now, jchapman said:

Maybe we can start handing out colorful belts for wrestling participation.

Considering that Wrestling is, in fact, a martial art, it wouldn't be that crazy?  If not a "belt", then maybe some type of recognition of ability, capability, and prowess.  I feel that pretty much everyone that ever wrestling in college is effectively the equivalent of a "black belt" (if such a thing existed).  While the real "masters" are guys like Snyder, J. Smith, Gable, and others that have won/achieved the highest level of accomplishment.  

I know that was partially joking, but if a 40 year old man off the street could walk in, and receive a similar instruction set that my BJJ school does for folks off the street, I honestly believe Wrestling would be MUCH more accepted.  To say... "hey man, you're over 29?  You're done.  Get out..." that's the wrong message to send. 

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2 minutes ago, jchapman said:

If Grandmas are kicking the butts of 20 year old men, then why are there age, gender, and weight classes?

So... in the live go's, 5 rounds, 3 mins per round.  I already answered age and gender.  Weight classes, yes... you do have it... the guys are on the smaller side.  Probably <150.  But... with BJJ, and unlike wrestling, BJJ is more of a chess match, and less of a Mortal Kombat style of "fight".  They get taken down.  They get mounted, and then all of a sudden the pull out a submission (thus kicking the young guy's butt).  

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20 hours ago, JHRoseWrestling said:

It looks like we've both wrestled and done BJJ at relatively high levels, and have a drastic difference of opinion on whether the tax on the body is comparable between the two.  You sound like one tough hombre.  I don't think most adult bodies will hold up to recreational wrestling training, at least not to the point where the fitness and enjoyment benefits aren't outweighed by the discomfort of minor injury and soreness...  which is why many wrestlers transition to BJJ in their later years.  Not because of a lack of wrestling opportunity, but because they find BJJ more physically sustainable.  I understand that there will be outliers and exceptions to this, and you are probably one of those.

Nah... I'm not a tough hombre... just choosing to pursue my passions differently during my mid-life crisis, and NOT choosing to waste it on a corvette.  I value my physical and psychological health greater than those other materialistic things.  ;-)

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6 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

So... in the live go's, 5 rounds, 3 mins per round.  I already answered age and gender.  Weight classes, yes... you do have it... the guys are on the smaller side.  Probably <150.  But... with BJJ, and unlike wrestling, BJJ is more of a chess match, and less of a Mortal Kombat style of "fight".  They get taken down.  They get mounted, and then all of a sudden the pull out a submission (thus kicking the young guy's butt).  

What I'm saying is, in BJJ tournaments, competitors are matched by age, gender, and weight class.  Why is this necessary when grandmas kick the butts of 20 year old men?

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21 hours ago, JHRoseWrestling said:

It looks like we've both wrestled and done BJJ at relatively high levels, and have a drastic difference of opinion on whether the tax on the body is comparable between the two.  You sound like one tough hombre.  I don't think most adult bodies will hold up to recreational wrestling training, at least not to the point where the fitness and enjoyment benefits aren't outweighed by the discomfort of minor injury and soreness...  which is why many wrestlers transition to BJJ in their later years.  Not because of a lack of wrestling opportunity, but because they find BJJ more physically sustainable.  I understand that there will be outliers and exceptions to this, and you are probably one of those.

Maybe I can chime in here.  I am a black belt and have placed at the world championships.  I also placed at the US Open a few times as well as being an All American and a resident at the OTC.  Neither sport is more taxing or more physically different.  There are two main differences:

 

There is more torque and twisting in wrestling.  Americans hit moves in training with extreme force very quickly and this leads to injury.  BJJ athletes dont train like this, and they last much longer.

 

In wrestling, you train with your own level.  In BJJ, everyone trains together.  In college, I had 9 backups at my weight.  Almost all of them were state champs, and if I was having a bad day, any of them could score on me.  This makes going live very hard.  In BJJ, I am a black belt and I could be training with a 16 year old white belt.  In any given practice, there will be maybe 4-8 black belts and they have a good chance of scoring a point on me, and about 35 other guys who have zero chance.  This lets me pick and choose my intensity level.  I can tell you 100%, If I am at pro practice and its 20 black belts in the room, that is going to be just as tough if not tougher than any practice I had at the Olympic Training Center, including grind matches.

Edited by olddirty

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11 minutes ago, olddirty said:

Maybe I can chime in here.  I am a black belt and have placed at the world championships.  I also placed at the US Open a few times as well as being an All American and a resident at the OTC.  Neither sport is more taxing or more physically different.  There are two main differences:

 

There is more torque and twisting in wrestling.  Americans hit moves in training with extreme force very quickly and this leads to injury.  BJJ athletes dont train like this, and they last much longer.

 

In wrestling, you train with your own level.  In BJJ, everyone trains together.  In college, I had 9 backups at my weight.  Almost all of them were state champs, and if I was having a bad day, any of them could score on my.  This makes going live very hard.  In BJJ, I am a black belt and I could be training with a 16 year old white belt.  In any given practice, there will be maybe 4-8 black belts that would even have a chance at scoring a point on me, and about 35 other guys who have zero chance.  This lets me pick and choose my intensity level.  I can tell you 100%, If I am at pro practice and its 20 black belts in the room, that is going to be just as tough if not tougher than any practice I had at the Olympic Training Center, including grind matches.

Thank you for your insight!  Much appreciated, and exactly my thought (and no, I'm not a black belt... yet... ;-))

My "idea" is to have a wrestling club that caters to all ages, just like BJJ, Krav Maga, TKD, Karate, etc. schools do so.  

My "idea" is that when you have an open club whereby 40-50 somethings feel welcomed, and can come in and drill, practice, choose to go live or not, it provides a path for not only continued passion, be also renewed and NEW passion to develop.  

I'm thoroughly enjoying my opportunity to roll at my local school.  I'm 40.  Can I do everything that the 23 year old "kid" can?  Sure... Do I have more limitations?  Sure do.  So...  I take it at MY pace.  We can absolutely do the same thing with wrestling.  And... if the 40+ year old wants to compete in masters/veterans, then that individual has a more defined path to do so.  If not... then it's a fantastic workout, paced by the individual.  

I'm just baffled by the amount of pushback and lack of general support of having an "at your own pace" wrestling club/school for middle-aged men to stay in shape at.  

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22 minutes ago, jchapman said:

What I'm saying is, in BJJ tournaments, competitors are matched by age, gender, and weight class.  Why is this necessary when grandmas kick the butts of 20 year old men?

Oh... I dunno.  This isn't in-tournament butt kicking, this is in practice/go-lives in-room when this is happening.  They don't compete (to my knowledge), but... I overheard one of the older gentlemen (Rocky, IIRC) stating that he was going to compete soon.

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