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WillieBoy

Cael as a head coach - can he match Gable?

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Well, I don't know how it will play out between these two titans, but right now Cael is on a roll, and I don't see any signs of him slowing down. So as long as Cael keeps doing Cael things, I would have to say the only way Cael does not break Dan Gable's record is because Cael chooses to go somewhere else, or do something else. 

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3 hours ago, Peso said:

 It's surprising how often great wrestlers are great coaches.  In many other sports you virtually never hear of a former great player becoming a great coach.  He's the whole package.  Hall of fame career as an athlete and eventually as a Coach.  

This is a special part of this sport.  That you see absolute competing legends like gold medalists Gable, Smith, Brands, and Sanderson all as multi time national champion coaches. 

Highly unusual if not unique to see the greatest of champions willing to slog it out for decades in the incredibly demanding coaching profession and having to completely change their focus from inner directed to helping others.

And when I say slog I mean slog. I recently re-read the super A Season On The Mat. It shows how Gable made the transition I described above, and Gable is the focus of the book. But in telling the story of his team, Tom Brands is described and quoted from time to time.

And it really struck me that here is a guy one year off a gold medal and he is absolutely in the trenches, being used with his brother as the demonstrators of moves when Gable holds clinics in small towns, driving guys to make weight, doing anything and everything.  One throwaway line in the book really caught my eye:  Gable is concerned about a skin disease and to address it Brands and Zalesky mop the mats.  

Not many folks who are the demonstrable best in the world in revenue sports are out there cleaning the playing surface less than a year after their greatest triumphs. And you always get the feeling with these guys that they wouldn't have it any other way.

I guess that's one positive byproduct of there not being a lot of money in wrestling.

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8 hours ago, Peso said:

I believe JRob left after they missed 10.  I hope that some day we see that Cunningham is equal to JRob, but man, that's going to be hard to do.  Either way, Cael is a great Coach.  It's surprising how often great wrestlers are great coaches.  In many other sports you virtually never hear of a former great player becoming a great coach.  He's the whole package.  Hall of fame career as an athlete and eventually as a Coach.  Great recruiting plus great development especially at the highest levels, equals greatness.  Really, the steady greatness has already put him in a group of 3 or 4 coaches all time.  I will have no trouble calling him the greatest coach I have ever seen if he passes Dan the man.  I came into the sport the year before Dan Gable lost to Larry Owings but that is the tournament where I really became a fan.  I was an Oklahoma kid, but I was heart broken when Dan Gable lost.  He was beyond a legend among the youth of this country.  My point is, I've seen virtually every champion and coach performance in the last 49 years.  We are truly getting to see something special here.  Keep it up Cael.  

JRob actually left after the '83-'84 season, a few years before they missed 10, which was '86-'87.

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12 hours ago, russelscout said:

After Gables 9 year title run and Iowa didnt win for a couple years in a row didnt the culture go a little south? I remember hearing that there was an increase in partying and decrease in dedication. I think maintaining that kind of culture is tough. You get one bad apple in there and everything can fall apart. Cael is certainly on pace, but maintaining it wont be easy.

well, i think the reason they didn't win the tenth, was that had already begun... based on his book...

i agree, if cael can continue the recruiting level... of the RIGHT guys i think it should happen.

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11 hours ago, Martini said:

Gable was 7.39 scholarships over for 4 years, see Des Moines Register 7/27/93. How many would he have won without this advantage? Also what about all the other years he probably cheated. Yes he cheated and Bobby Douglas called him on it.

i guess i wasn't aware of this.

what years?

before or after douglas won his title at ASU?

can it compare to the money that the RTC's provide? 

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11 hours ago, Peso said:

 It's surprising how often great wrestlers are great coaches.  In many other sports you virtually never hear of a former great player becoming a great coach.  

The other sports all have professional leagues and after the great athletes are done participating they rarely want to coach.

There are plenty of great American wrestlers that were not exactly the best coaches, you'd be lucky to call it 50/50 for great wrestlers being great coaches. There are guys like Brian Smith, Tom Borelli, and Mark Manning that weren't great wrestlers but have become very good coaches.

The thinking that just because you are successful on the mat equates to you being successful in the chair is archaic and not correct. In order to be successful in the chair you need to be able to show the moves, motivate the kids, and at the collegiate level recruit the right kids to campus.

 

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14 minutes ago, GockeS said:

well, i think the reason they didn't win the tenth, was that had already begun... based on his book...

i agree, if cael can continue the recruiting level... of the RIGHT guys i think it should happen.

Shortly after the didn't get number X, was when they came out with the poster, media guide and a book as well, with the theme..."The New Breed"

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9 hours ago, Idaho said:

Was it tougher in Gables era to win those titles or tougher now for Cael to win titles? 

I was thinking about this before I saw the question...off the top of my head, I would have to say it's tougher now....the Big Ten has been tough for a long time, but is even tougher now...a lot of good wrestling schools in the Big Ten now....Rutgers and Nebraska have certainly added more to the "fire".  You have many schools with RTC's now, and so many talented kids out there to recruit.  In addition there are a lot more good coaches out there now....not just head coaches, but in many cases assistants who are truly impacting programs.  Fadz  (There was a time, in the Big Ten, where a majority of the head coaches were "Gable coached", but the number isn't the same anymore).

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8 hours ago, drag it said:

One throwaway line in the book really caught my eye:  Gable is concerned about a skin disease and to address it Brands and Zalesky mop the mats.  

Not many folks who are the demonstrable best in the world in revenue sports are out there cleaning the playing surface less than a year after their greatest triumphs. And you always get the feeling with these guys that they wouldn't have it any other way.

I guess that's one positive byproduct of there not being a lot of money in wrestling.

You are exactly right. It's the fact that there is little money in it that allows this unique characteristic in wrestling.

It reminds of a book called "Legacy" by James Kerr. It's really a personal development book about the All Blacks; a truly dominant rugby team in New Zealand. One of the core themes is "sweep the sheds". At the end of every game, these rugby stars take the time to clean the facility before leaving it.

The idea is that doing these little jobs normally reserved for custodians build personal humility and keep stars grounded. You are never too big to do the small things and wrestling coaches embody this too. 

Think if Michael Jordan went into coaching. You think he would do those small things? Why would he? The guy has enough money he doesn't have to do anything in his life if he doesn't want to.

Like I said, it's an interesting characteristic, and I wonder if it will stay that way with the more money available to our athletes today.

Edited by russelscout

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43 minutes ago, fadzaev2 said:

Shortly after the didn't get number X, was when they came out with the poster, media guide and a book as well, with the theme..."The New Breed"

yep, all that stuff from that year was in the trash in the poster 

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If a coach like Dan Gable has more scholarships to hand out than everyone else because of the in state vs out of state thing, and you add that to his wrestling story, he should win the title every year. Once they took that edge away from him things seemed to change pretty quickly from what I have read over the years. Admittedly, I have never taken a deep dive into the subject matter as other seem to have done. 

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21 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

If a coach like Dan Gable has more scholarships to hand out than everyone else because of the in state vs out of state thing, and you add that to his wrestling story, he should win the title every year. Once they took that edge away from him things seemed to change pretty quickly from what I have read over the years. Admittedly, I have never taken a deep dive into the subject matter as other seem to have done. 

Some of his most dominant teams were 91' and after. Wouldn't that have been after the allegations?

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18 hours ago, Martini said:

Gable was 7.39 scholarships over for 4 years, see Des Moines Register 7/27/93. How many would he have won without this advantage? Also what about all the other years he probably cheated. Yes he cheated and Bobby Douglas called him on it.

i can't seem to find anything on it

and dont have access to des moines register

can you help me out? 

never mind it was between 87 and 90

 

from a rivals forum

What's interesting is Alger was enrolled at Iowa during the period when Gable got sanctioned by the NCAA for giving out an extra 1.85 scholarships a year between 1987 and 1990 (7.4 extra full ships!). Unfortunately, the NCAA investigation and punishment was limited to that four year period even though the rule they broke went into effect shortly after Gable took over (1978). 

Edited by GockeS

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this was also posted 

See link for facts. Considered a major violation by the Big Ten Conference and secondary violations by the schools. Big Ten's interpretation on how to calculate in state vs out of state scholarships in all non revenue sports was in error. Multiple schools and sports were affected. Iowa was noted to be 5 over during the 4 years audited and was reduced the same amount going forward as were all the other schools.  

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1993-07-26-9307260084-story.html

7 of 11 schools.

 

infractions committee

https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/miCaseView/report?id=101820

 

Edited by GockeS

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all that i found was brought up march 2018, in response to people questioning how cael is stockpiling the talent he has.

 

back in the early 90's Tim Neumann was forced out at UNL b/c a disgruntled wrestler who had transferred out started talking about gambling or something and the AD began looking and found a ponzi scheme of scholly money.

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4 hours ago, JBluegill133 said:

Here's another angle...  How many D1 coaches were a product of Gables room?  Will Cael's crew translate into successful coaches after their competition career is over?  

I saw a list a number of years ago.....it's a big list....Gable coached coaches....both high school and college.  A few great ones were Mark Johnson and Jay Robinson (asst. for Gable), Troy and Terry Steiner, Jim Zalesky, Tom Ryan, Jim Heffernan, John Heffernan, Barry Davis, Bart Chelsevig, Mark Reiland, Brad Smith, T and T Brands, Duane Goldman and I think there are many more.

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11 minutes ago, fadzaev2 said:

I saw a list a number of years ago.....it's a big list....Gable coached coaches....both high school and college.  A few great ones were Mark Johnson and Jay Robinson (asst. for Gable), Troy and Terry Steiner, Jim Zalesky, Tom Ryan, Jim Heffernan, John Heffernan, Barry Davis, Bart Chelsevig, Mark Reiland, Brad Smith, T and T Brands, Duane Goldman and I think there are many more.

Kevin Dresser, Steve Martin, and Tony Ersland 

Edited by russelscout

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7 hours ago, russelscout said:

Some of his most dominant teams were 91' and after. Wouldn't that have been after the allegations?

But were those guys recruited before the allegations came to light? 

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