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16 hours ago, KCMO2 said:

Cael, 4x undefeated, Uetake, undefeated in college, Gable, 1 loss in 3 years, Hodge, undefeated in college, Cox, 3x champ with an Olympic gold medalist preventing him from 4.  Dake is a great wrestler, but 2nd best EVER....?....hardly.

I like J'Den tremendously, but Dake has him beat 4X and tougher competition. 

Gable also - he lost when it counted, Dake did not. 

Cael, Uetake, Hodge - tough to edge those boys out. 

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I don't think anyone in the country has a higher ceiling as a Head Coach candidate.  Name is the number 1 factor for a coach in recruiting.  He already has one of the 5 biggest names in the sport.  Personality and ability to relate to recruits is probably the #2 factor for a coach in recruiting.  He has more personality than any of the big names outside of Askren, and he seems like he speaks millennial very well.  If he was to take a job with a solid RTC then I think he'd be the closest thing to Cael.  Every team outside of State College would be smart to roll the dice on him.  

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2 minutes ago, boconnell said:

I don't think anyone in the country has a higher ceiling as a Head Coach candidate.  Name is the number 1 factor for a coach in recruiting.  He already has one of the 5 biggest names in the sport.  Personality and ability to relate to recruits is probably the #2 factor for a coach in recruiting.  He has more personality than any of the big names outside of Askren, and he seems like he speaks millennial very well.  If he was to take a job with a solid RTC then I think he'd be the closest thing to Cael.  Every team outside of State College would be smart to roll the dice on him.  

i agree with much of what you said.

but, unless cael is different with his wrestlers... im not sure he speaks millennial very well.... or he speaks a different kind of millennial.

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Just now, GockeS said:

i agree with much of what you said.

but, unless cael is different with his wrestlers... im not sure he speaks millennial very well.... or he speaks a different kind of millennial.

Cael has so much name and such a good staff he gets away with having no personality in recruiting.  Plus he coaches guys up once they get there.  

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Cael seems to have a very quiet but very commanding presence, and his drive and determination are unmistakable.  It's not a vivid personality (for sure), but it's real and it fits him, and it combines perfectly with the gold medal, 159-0, Wheaties Box, etc. on his mantle.  Not sure how this would translate with average millennials or with millennial non-athlete wrestlers, but I have to think that top flight wrestlers (whose lives revolve around a quiet sport) are able to recognize his desire for greatness and want to be around it, particularly when they realize that as part of that he encourages innovation and letting it fly on the mat.     

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11 minutes ago, IronChef said:

This is 100% false. Kids don't care what you did 1% as much as they care what you can do for them.

But they see what you have done and relate that to what you can do for them.  Especially in wrestling where you have a much higher rate of very successful athletes becoming very successful coaches, compared to most sports.

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When will we stop acting like winning NCAA's or the Olympics in the 1940's is equivalent to present times?  My coach won the 2nd world title for USA.  He didnt even train in the offseason bcause he had to do farm work.  Yeah, he was a bad ass, but go watch some videos of those old time wrestlers.  Rating those guys with Dake or Cael is ridiculous. 

Edited by olddirty

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21 hours ago, NJDan said:

But will Cornell hand him the reigns? I don't see Coach Koll being asked to leave before he is good and ready. But he's been there for 28 years. 

Not hard to get a HC to step aside if you dangle AD or assistant AD position.

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1 hour ago, olddirty said:

When will we stop acting like winning NCAA's or the Olympics in the 1940's is equivalent to present times?  My coach won the 2nd world title for USA.  He didnt even train in the offseason bcause he had to do farm work.  Yeah, we was a bad ass, but go watch some videos of those old time wrestlers.  Rating those guys with Dake or Cael is ridiculous. 

And, while we are at it, can we stop acting like being 'undefeated' is the be-all measure for how good a wrestler was? Not every undefeated wrestler was necessarily better than wrestlers with 1 career loss. It doesn't track.

Yes, going undefeated is tremendously difficult when you consider how easy it is to have a bad day due to sickness, a car accident, death of a loved one, or many kinds of bad luck - even if you are good enough to beat everybody else on a good day. Don't get me wrong, going undefeated is very impressive, and it is certainly worth of mention and praise. But, lets be honest, luck plays into it.

Just because a really great wrestler has a bad day, or 2 or 3, and loses to an inferior wrestler, or 2 or 3 doesn't mean he's suddenly not a great wrestler. Maybe his dog died, maybe he had the flu, maybe his dog got the flu and died. When he comes back and avenges his losses (Ex: Spencer Lee this year), maybe he is the best wrestler and his stats just don't reflect it.

Even great wrestlers have bad days. Just because another wrestler didn't have any bad days, doesn't make him automatically better. Just makes him have better stats.

 

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12 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Just because another wrestler didn't have any bad days, doesn't make him automatically better. Just makes him have better stats.

 

It’s wrestling. They’ve all had bad days.

But yeah agree 0 losses vs 2-4 or whatever doesn’t tell the whole story. Overall, love these discussions for things I learn, a perspective I hadn’t considered, but end all be all, can’t definitely say greatest this, who wins that hypothetical match, etc. 

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5 hours ago, Katie said:

Is there even a point to an all-time list if Uetake isn’t #1 or #2?

He’s the only undefeated wrestler in OkSt history. He won an Olympic title after his sophomore year. He was reportedly never even challenged.

Haven't you been listening?  Dake may well be better.

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on another thread i was doing bracket strength.

people on here started to post about some of these top guys competition strength.

so i decided to check it out 

I remembered it seemed like guys ran from Cael. So i wondered if the same thing happened for other 4 timers

the points come from Multiple x AA's.

1st = 8, 2nd = 7 etc for any AA finish before or during the year of the bracket

wrestlers get half points IE 1st = 4 for anything later than that years bracket.

 

 

Edited by GockeS

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These are just AA numbers, I will add in the non AA later when i have them all. 

I averaged all four years. then threw out the highest year for the adjusted. the second adjusted avg is throwing out the lowest.

Cael                                                Dake                                       Steiber                                Smith

1999 184   68                            2010 141    62.5                 2012  133 77                     1990 158   68.5

2000 184 72.5                         2011 149   59                        2013  89                              1991 158  68

2001  184  64                            2012 157  53                         2014  82.5                          1992  158  84

2002  197   43.5                       2013  165  94.5                    2015  141 113                   1994  158  87 

AVG              62                                           67.25                         90.375                                   76.875

adjusted AVG   58.5                               58.17                         82.83                                      73.5

adjusted avg   68.17                              72                                94.83                                      79.83

Cox                                               Snyder

2014 197  77                           2015 197 95

2015 197  95                           2016  H 90

2016 197  74.5                       2017   H 66.5

2017  197 70.5                       2018  H 79.5

AVG             79.25                                   82.75

adjusted AVG  74                                  78.66

adjusted avg  82.16                            88.17

 

as it appears Cael's last year was a farewell tour, Dake, Steiber and Smith had their toughest tourney their last years.

Some are claiming Dake's competition was tougher... I'm not buying it. I thought it was too. Now, something that might be hurting his numbers is his change in weight classes each year. Returning AA's from the weight class up were not in his bracket the year before etc... On the Other hand, Dakes huge last year was aided by 26 points from David Taylor, and 20.5 from Caldwell.

But Dake did seek out that competition. Each year his finals opponent was a guy was or would be a 3 or 4 x AA

It's crazy, but Steiber, I think had the toughest overall brackets. Was it B/c he wasn't that DOMINANT guy that people tried to avoid? 

Edited by GockeS

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That I am going to disagree on some of this doesn't mean that I don't greatly appreciate the detailed effort. 

It's not clear to me that the strength of the brackets has much to do with the top-ranked guy's reputation. At root this is going to be about how much guys actually weigh. 

I also don't thnk that for guys this good, the AA average numbers are as important as who they faced in the finals. For an all time great, guys who are even high AAs aren't likely to beat them; instead there is realistically probably only one guy with a real shot. 

And (we agree on this part) not only were the two Iowa and two Penn State guys that Dake beat in the finals top shelf, one of them was an all-time great, who he beat three times in three different kinds of matches -- after going up a weight above what was probably his real wrestling weight just to take him on, an all-time challenge successfully met. 

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11 hours ago, drag it said:

That I am going to disagree on some of this doesn't mean that I don't greatly appreciate the detailed effort. 

It's not clear to me that the strength of the brackets has much to do with the top-ranked guy's reputation. At root this is going to be about how much guys actually weigh. 

I also don't thnk that for guys this good, the AA average numbers are as important as who they faced in the finals. For an all time great, guys who are even high AAs aren't likely to beat them; instead there is realistically probably only one guy with a real shot. 

And (we agree on this part) not only were the two Iowa and two Penn State guys that Dake beat in the finals top shelf, one of them was an all-time great, who he beat three times in three different kinds of matches -- after going up a weight above what was probably his real wrestling weight just to take him on, an all-time challenge successfully met. 

agreed. Dake beat some incredible wrestlers in the finals! 

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18 hours ago, IronChef said:

This is 100% false. Kids don't care what you did 1% as much as they care what you can do for them.

What you did will get you invited in through the front door.  What you can do for them will get you invited to stay for dinner.

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18 hours ago, Lurker said:

But they see what you have done and relate that to what you can do for them.  Especially in wrestling where you have a much higher rate of very successful athletes becoming very successful coaches, compared to most sports.

Yep.  If a kid wants Olympic Gold, it's much easier to convince them of what you can do for them while an Olympic Gold Medal hangs around your neck.  You have what they want and you tell them you know how to get it.  

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59 minutes ago, JBluegill133 said:

What you did will get you invited in through the front door.  What you can do for them will get you invited to stay for dinner.

What gets you dessert?

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1 hour ago, boconnell said:

Yep.  If a kid wants Olympic Gold, it's much easier to convince them of what you can do for them while an Olympic Gold Medal hangs around your neck.  You have what they want and you tell them you know how to get it.  

or if you have helped others get that gold medal

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