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Suriano vs Colon at BTS

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29 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Haha I think a couple years ago he had a few good upsets, and pushed Steiber and Maple to the brink in a few matches, sorry his draw wasnt as tough last year. The point is, he's one of those guys who style just fits freestyle better than folk. aside from 125 where its just the same several college stars who have evolved into freestylers (or already were) there are a few of these guys at every weight. Like gatekeepers, they'll never make the team but they beat top college guys every year and people post like it's a shocking result.
Sorry Colon won the USOPEN lost final X, and was able to wrestle at Worlds where he took 3rd. I didnt put it all together until now. Suriano by 5

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Look I said if I had to bet I’d pick Colon, but it would hardly be “shocking if it’s not a blow out.”  

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It's a very intriguing match, glad it's happening.  Colon is going to attack, I think Joe can score a lot of pushouts as Suriano tries to get out of those uncomfortable ties.  Suriano is not used to that and it could play a factor if he is defensive, instinct will be to back out of underhooks. 

Edited by Gantry

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1 hour ago, AnklePicker said:

And BTW freestyle isn't a different sport.  Funny how nearly all of our best of the best folkstylers seem to transition quite well to free.  Dake, Snyder, Taylor, Burroughs, Cox...how on earth did they do it?

By wrestling freestyle regularly their whole competitive lives.....

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14 minutes ago, Lurker said:

By wrestling freestyle regularly their whole competitive lives.....

100%
Snyder focused more than the average Joe and definitely reaped the rewards. 
Dake and Taylor are Hall of Fame collegiate wrestlers who finally made the team after years of trying. 
Burroughs, will go down as maybe our greatest ever, and having a literal unstoppable neutral attack was what fostered that. 
Cox, is just great, an athlete at a heavier weight with a n excellent neutral game. 

I liked that comment because he picked our current very successful freestyle team and used that as proof that all folk-style wrestlers will have similar results. 
Literally any US wrestler who has results of any kind (in freestyle) will have previously been a Folk-style wrestler because its what we offer....  unless your Cejudo, who said, let me not waste time doing college things, let me eye the prize and do dis thang
..... 

Edited by spladle08
Wording

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I’m not trying to take sides in the free/folk debate that will never end, but Cox, JB, and Dake are total outliers and in the very short list of best American athletes ever in the sport. They can do things with their bodies and to others’ bodies that almost nobody else can. It’s not surprising that they were successful in both styles. Any of those guys could compete in any form of grappling and adapt very quickly to become world class. Dake kept it competitive with a world champion in Greco, albeit in an exhibition match, with practically no preparation.

Snyder is actually a case against the argument that folkstyke produces great freestyle wrestlers. He specifically eschewed folkstyle even while competing in it so he wouldn’t be disadvantaged against those who trained freestyle exclusively. 

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Suriano has never been dominated in a match in his life. Colon may get some push outs from upper body ties, but I doubt he hits any takedowns. 

If Suriano has par terre defense, he wins. If he doesn’t, he still might win. 

Colon has the draw of a lifetime and took full advantage, but let’s not pretend like colon is on the same level as our other world bronzes. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

Suriano has never been dominated in a match in his life. Colon may get some push outs from upper body ties, but I doubt he hits any takedowns. 

If Suriano has par terre defense, he wins. If he doesn’t, he still might win. 

Colon has the draw of a lifetime and took full advantage, but let’s not pretend like colon is on the same level as our other world bronzes. 

 

This is precisely why I am going with him as a very live underdog.  It seems as if Colon is getting all the benefit of the doubt, whereas Suriano is being counted out because he is 'just' a very good folk-style wrestler.

I don't see Colon horsing him.

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32 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

Suriano has never been dominated in a match in his life. Colon may get some push outs from upper body ties, but I doubt he hits any takedowns. 

If Suriano has par terre defense, he wins. If he doesn’t, he still might win. 

Colon has the draw of a lifetime and took full advantage, but let’s not pretend like colon is on the same level as our other world bronzes. 

I agree, Colon got a great draw last year and made the most of it, but we also shouldn't pretend he's some scrub that has no business competing on the World level.  He's one of our most active senior level athletes, and he's spent the better part of the last couple years ranked in that 10 - 20 range. 

His unique style also makes him a pretty difficult first-time opponent.  I would be very surprised if he isn't able to get at least one takedown.  

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5 hours ago, Housebuye said:

Suriano has never been dominated in a match in his life. Colon may get some push outs from upper body ties, but I doubt he hits any takedowns. 

If Suriano has par terre defense, he wins. If he doesn’t, he still might win. 

Colon has the draw of a lifetime and took full advantage, but let’s not pretend like colon is on the same level as our other world bronzes. 

 

Sorry, but Lee dominated him in the 125 lb final in 2018.  If you watch that match objectively there’s no other conclusion. 

Suriano hasn’t wrestled freestyle precisely because his tendency to stall against top guys will be penalized.  

And someone is saying colon can’t take Suriano down? If Korbin Myers can do it, I think Colon can. 

 

 

Edited by DEFan79

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5 hours ago, Housebuye said:

Suriano has never been dominated in a match in his life. Colon may get some push outs from upper body ties, but I doubt he hits any takedowns. 

If Suriano has par terre defense, he wins. If he doesn’t, he still might win. 

Colon has the draw of a lifetime and took full advantage, but let’s not pretend like colon is on the same level as our other world bronzes. 

 

So Korbin Myers and Desanto can take Suriano down, but colon can’t. 

Think and/or research before you write

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Suriano is a great wrestler, and in time may have the opportunity to be the USA rep.  However, I look at it from a historical and probability factor.

1) The first and biggest factor I look at to keep it objective is this.  Suriano just completed his sophomore year of college.  As far as I can think of there are 3 wrestlers in the last 2 decades that made the senior freestyle world team while in college.  Snyder, Sanderson, and J. Smith.  As good as Suriano is, I do  not think he is at their level.  Sanderson didn't compete the first time because of the boycott and the second time because of 9-11.  Smith and Snyder won gold.  So just on that factor alone it is a long shot for the college national champ (regardless who it is).  Sanderson and Smith are legendary.  Snyder is too, but he was preparing for that moment since the start of his senior year in high school.  

2) Yes, Colon is not any of them 3. However, he is a world medalist regardless if he was "#2" or not.  As far as "lucking into a bronze", I am not sure how that happens.  Colon was probably the top 6 in the world regardless of the draw, and even if it would have been double elimination.  So the question that would have to be answered would be, is Suriano one of the top 6 guys in the world?  Probably not yet.  Think about it.  If we through a topic up on the message board that said "suriano will medal at the worlds", I don't think anyone would think that he would.  Again, it is not taking anything away from Suriano.  Look at Dake, Taylor, Molinaro, Ruth, Deringer, Metcalf, Cox, and many more.  These guys couldn't beat world medalists at the same point in time as where Suriano is, and they were great too.  So it definitely is not a knock on Suriano.  It is just a historical reality.  

3) Colons close matches?  He won them.  One of the keys to being world class is winning those matches.  Knowing when to open up and when not too.  Probably the thing that kept Metcalf from medaling on the world stage.  He didn't know when to not open up. It just wasn't his style. He lost so many close ones by not knowing when to pull back a little, and he was great. 

4) Colon Vs. Nashon?  Nashon is probably the closest thing to JB as there is when it come to pure speed.  First, I think he was a late starter if I am not mistaking.  His speed is world class.  He is relatively inexperienced when compared to others internationally, but make no mistake when he opens up he is as good as anyone in the world IMO.  I was not surprised at all when he beat Colon, and I think he had a shot to medal as well with the right draw.  Like Colon, I think he is a top 6 guy.   

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10 hours ago, DEFan79 said:

So Korbin Myers and Desanto can take Suriano down, but colon can’t. 

Think and/or research before you write

Terrible argument. We see this all the time with our top wrestlers. They get taken down by lesser wrestlers but when against the top guys and/or they are wrestling at events that matter, they take less risks. 

Nolf got taken down by many guys this season, yet didn’t concede a takedown at NCAAs. 

Nickal gave up a takedown to Eric Schultz.

snyder gives up takedowns in the off-season all the time.

Fix gave up a takedown to Phillipi, who didn’t AA.

spencer Lee gave up takedowns to a bunch of guys, including Mackall 

Suriano got taken down during the season by Myers as Desanto, but didn’t get taken down at NCAAs, even though he faced Myers again and he didn’t give up a takedown vs DeSanto at Big10s. Even the examples you used were silly. 

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11 hours ago, DEFan79 said:

Sorry, but Lee dominated him in the 125 lb final in 2018.  If you watch that match objectively there’s no other conclusion. 

Suriano hasn’t wrestled freestyle precisely because his tendency to stall against top guys will be penalized.  

And someone is saying colon can’t take Suriano down? If Korbin Myers can do it, I think Colon can. 

 

 

More unsubstantiated claims. Not surprised given your other post. 

1.  Clearly I was referring to the claims that this wouldn’t be a match, easy tech for colon, etc. Colon can only win by tech with turns, so I pointed out that if Suriano has par terre defense this is off the table. Colon will not tech Suriano with takedowns and push outs. Lee couldn’t get consistent takedowns on Suriano in this match, right?

2. Unsubstantiated claim. Do you really think that is the reason? 

3. Not what I said. You are responding to a claim I didn’t make. Also your reasoning is flawed anyways, as explained in the prior post. 

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7 hours ago, scramble said:

Suriano is a great wrestler, and in time may have the opportunity to be the USA rep.  However, I look at it from a historical and probability factor.

1) The first and biggest factor I look at to keep it objective is this.  Suriano just completed his sophomore year of college.  As far as I can think of there are 3 wrestlers in the last 2 decades that made the senior freestyle world team while in college.  Snyder, Sanderson, and J. Smith.  As good as Suriano is, I do  not think he is at their level.  Sanderson didn't compete the first time because of the boycott and the second time because of 9-11.  Smith and Snyder won gold.  So just on that factor alone it is a long shot for the college national champ (regardless who it is).  Sanderson and Smith are legendary.  Snyder is too, but he was preparing for that moment since the start of his senior year in high school.  

2) Yes, Colon is not any of them 3. However, he is a world medalist regardless if he was "#2" or not.  As far as "lucking into a bronze", I am not sure how that happens.  Colon was probably the top 6 in the world regardless of the draw, and even if it would have been double elimination.  So the question that would have to be answered would be, is Suriano one of the top 6 guys in the world?  Probably not yet.  Think about it.  If we through a topic up on the message board that said "suriano will medal at the worlds", I don't think anyone would think that he would.  Again, it is not taking anything away from Suriano.  Look at Dake, Taylor, Molinaro, Ruth, Deringer, Metcalf, Cox, and many more.  These guys couldn't beat world medalists at the same point in time as where Suriano is, and they were great too.  So it definitely is not a knock on Suriano.  It is just a historical reality.  

3) Colons close matches?  He won them.  One of the keys to being world class is winning those matches.  Knowing when to open up and when not too.  Probably the thing that kept Metcalf from medaling on the world stage.  He didn't know when to not open up. It just wasn't his style. He lost so many close ones by not knowing when to pull back a little, and he was great. 

4) Colon Vs. Nashon?  Nashon is probably the closest thing to JB as there is when it come to pure speed.  First, I think he was a late starter if I am not mistaking.  His speed is world class.  He is relatively inexperienced when compared to others internationally, but make no mistake when he opens up he is as good as anyone in the world IMO.  I was not surprised at all when he beat Colon, and I think he had a shot to medal as well with the right draw.  Like Colon, I think he is a top 6 guy.   

1. Agreed. Suriano isn’t making the world team. Big difference in beating one of the top guys maybe (didn’t claim he would definitely win). 

2. Colon was nowhere near top 6 in the world based on performance prior to worlds. He wasn’t even the best domestically and we are not good at 61kg internationally. UWW has all but admitted the reason for 2 bronze and the way they do draws is so lesser wrestlers (they are hoping from a lesser known wrestling country) have a chance at the podium. Props to Colon - he took full advantage. He didn’t beat the top guys in the world to win bronze though. Look at the historical performance in the US. We have a lot of 1 time bronze medalists. The prediction for future success is dramatically improved for golds than for bronzes because you can’t win a gold without beating some of the worlds best. You can win a bronze though. 

3. Agreed somewhat. This matters more in freestyle as techs are easier to come by, but valid point. 

4. The US does not have 2 of the top 6 at 61kg. Come on. Look at our history at the weight. I’m a Garrett fan (and colon fan for that matter), support Cornell and ASU, and actually suggested with the right draw Garrett could medal last year, but man this is extremely bias. Even Flo has Colon 12th, and their rankings (understandably) overrank Americans, just like every other wrestling news site in other countries do for their athletes. https://www.flowrestling.org/rankings/6031553-international-rankings-mens-freestyle/29433-61-kg-yowlys-bonne-cub

 

i really don’t mean to bash colon. I think our success at other weights recently may have skewed our perception though. We as a county just aren’t very good from 57-65 in recent history. Gilman shows promise, Fix, Lee, Yianni, Zain etc too but we do not have the medals to prove we are anywhere near the best at these weights.

 

Lets look at the last 3 years, arguably where America has been the best ever. 

57 kg - DNP, silver, DNP

61 kg gold, dnp, bronze (pretty good, but with a grain of salt)

65 kg - dnp, dnp, dnp (although might be our best shot at a medal this year between Yianni, Zain, Molinaro and J.O.)

we are getting better, but these weights are our weakest. 57 and 65 are the deepest weights in the world during Olympic years too, which makes it even harder 

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16 hours ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

I agree, Colon got a great draw last year and made the most of it, but we also shouldn't pretend he's some scrub that has no business competing on the World level.  He's one of our most active senior level athletes, and he's spent the better part of the last couple years ranked in that 10 - 20 range. 

His unique style also makes him a pretty difficult first-time opponent.  I would be very surprised if he isn't able to get at least one takedown.  

Fair enough. I think Flo has him ranked appropriately - top 12ish in the world. He won’t medal every time out and will never win gold, but he is not someone people want to see on their side of the bracket 

what I like about Colon is his ability to surprise almost anyone the first time he wrestle them. It makes him a serious wildcard. He is like a poor man’s Bonne. Maybe Kamal Bey is a good comparison, but I don’t know much about Greco. 

I think consistency wise Garrett is a better pick, but man I love watching colon. 

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1 hour ago, Housebuye said:

Terrible argument. We see this all the time with our top wrestlers. They get taken down by lesser wrestlers but when against the top guys and/or they are wrestling at events that matter, they take less risks. 

Nolf got taken down by many guys this season, yet didn’t concede a takedown at NCAAs. 

Nickal gave up a takedown to Eric Schultz.

snyder gives up takedowns in the off-season all the time.

Fix gave up a takedown to Phillipi, who didn’t AA.

spencer Lee gave up takedowns to a bunch of guys, including Mackall 

Suriano got taken down during the season by Myers as Desanto, but didn’t get taken down at NCAAs, even though he faced Myers again and he didn’t give up a takedown vs DeSanto at Big10s. Even the examples you used were silly. 

 Nope, wrong again.  It’s like you didn’t even watch NCAAs.  Myers took him down in the first period.

But yeah I’m sure colon isn’t as good as Myers in neutral.  Come on man, you’re embarrassing yourself now  

 

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1 hour ago, Housebuye said:

1. Agreed. Suriano isn’t making the world team. Big difference in beating one of the top guys maybe (didn’t claim he would definitely win). 

2. Colon was nowhere near top 6 in the world based on performance prior to worlds. He wasn’t even the best domestically and we are not good at 61kg internationally. UWW has all but admitted the reason for 2 bronze and the way they do draws is so lesser wrestlers (they are hoping from a lesser known wrestling country) have a chance at the podium. Props to Colon - he took full advantage. He didn’t beat the top guys in the world to win bronze though. Look at the historical performance in the US. We have a lot of 1 time bronze medalists. The prediction for future success is dramatically improved for golds than for bronzes because you can’t win a gold without beating some of the worlds best. You can win a bronze though. 

3. Agreed somewhat. This matters more in freestyle as techs are easier to come by, but valid point. 

4. The US does not have 2 of the top 6 at 61kg. Come on. Look at our history at the weight. I’m a Garrett fan (and colon fan for that matter), support Cornell and ASU, and actually suggested with the right draw Garrett could medal last year, but man this is extremely bias. Even Flo has Colon 12th, and their rankings (understandably) overrank Americans, just like every other wrestling news site in other countries do for their athletes. https://www.flowrestling.org/rankings/6031553-international-rankings-mens-freestyle/29433-61-kg-yowlys-bonne-cub

 

i really don’t mean to bash colon. I think our success at other weights recently may have skewed our perception though. We as a county just aren’t very good from 57-65 in recent history. Gilman shows promise, Fix, Lee, Yianni, Zain etc too but we do not have the medals to prove we are anywhere near the best at these weights.

 

Lets look at the last 3 years, arguably where America has been the best ever. 

57 kg - DNP, silver, DNP

61 kg gold, dnp, bronze (pretty good, but with a grain of salt)

65 kg - dnp, dnp, dnp (although might be our best shot at a medal this year between Yianni, Zain, Molinaro and J.O.)

we are getting better, but these weights are our weakest. 57 and 65 are the deepest weights in the world during Olympic years too, which makes it even harder 

I should probably have clarified my top 6 in the world comment, because I agree with you collectively.  I was thinking more of getting to the round before the bronzed medal, which would be top 8 IMO.  Sorry for the brain fart :-).  Additionally, I am more referring to the tournament itself since there is can only be one rep at each weight.  So I think he would have/could have finished top 8.  Now if it were a tournament where multiple reps from countries could be I would feel different.  I definitely think their are a few countries which have a few guys in and of themselves that would beat Colon or Nashon.  However, like you mentioned, the way the Worlds and Oly's are set up does allow for medals to be distributed more.  All in all though, I pretty much agree with a vast majority of your comments.

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11 hours ago, scramble said:

Suriano is a great wrestler, and in time may have the opportunity to be the USA rep.  However, I look at it from a historical and probability factor.

1) The first and biggest factor I look at to keep it objective is this.  Suriano just completed his sophomore year of college.  As far as I can think of there are 3 wrestlers in the last 2 decades that made the senior freestyle world team while in college.  Snyder, Sanderson, and J. Smith.  As good as Suriano is, I do  not think he is at their level.  Sanderson didn't compete the first time because of the boycott and the second time because of 9-11.  Smith and Snyder won gold.  So just on that factor alone it is a long shot for the college national champ (regardless who it is).  Sanderson and Smith are legendary.  Snyder is too, but he was preparing for that moment since the start of his senior year in high school.   

 

Suriano was a junior.   In the last 4 years both Zain and JDen Cox have made the senior level team while still in college.  Not saying Suriano is at that level though, just providing some recent examples. 

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Suriano was a junior.   In the last 4 years both Zain and JDen Cox have made the senior level team while still in college.  Not saying Suriano is at that level though, just providing some recent examples. 
Suriano is in great shape and hard to score on. He will be facing a savvy veteran in Colon. It's a very interesting match up.

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