you be the ref...

[Plasmodium 1,256]

Flagrant misconduct or not?

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/6380224-this-was-flagrant-misconduct

[TobusRex 1,521]

I'm not so sure it was flagrant. The oil check definitely happened, but I don't think it was "intentional", I think the kid was just grabbing whatever he could get his hands on.

[TripNSweep 367]

The ref seemed to have it out for that kid from the beginning.  

[tightwaist 364]

What were the first 2 calls for?  I didn’t see anything wrong with what the Exeter kids was doing

[Griff the BullRam 26]

This happened a few weeks/months ago. If I recall correctly, the ref is a club coach in the area, and a kid on his club team would've eventually met up with the winner of this match. The kid who was dq'd in this match was the favorite to win the whole thing. I wan't there and can't say with 100% certainty that this is what happened, but everything on social media pointed to this being the case.

[randyfoxwell 55]

Are we still talking about this?

[Plasmodium 1,256]

This is unquestionably flagrant misconduct.  The behavior is shameful

[Crotalus 313]

To quote the ref, "that ain't wrestling". There are guys that make a habit of checking oil it's never an accident. I don't care about any conspiracy theories, if a wrestler sticks his finger up his opponent's ass, he should be DQed immediately.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[TobusRex 1,521]

8 hours ago, Griff the BullRam said:

This happened a few weeks/months ago. If I recall correctly, the ref is a club coach in the area, and a kid on his club team would've eventually met up with the winner of this match. The kid who was dq'd in this match was the favorite to win the whole thing. I wan't there and can't say with 100% certainty that this is what happened, but everything on social media pointed to this being the case.

Ended up keeping that one kid out of the state tournament, right? I seem to recall him being a favorite to win state (or he was a defending state champ or something), and then getting disqualified. Maybe I'm mixing it up with another story.

[John Coctostan 46]

this ref definitely "inserted himself" (pardon the phrasing) a little too much in this match.

the first call for headbutting was utter bull****.  the penalty for suggesting a stalling call, questionable at best.  had the ref officiated as aggressively towards the red wrestler as he had the green, there undoubtedly would have been a stalling call.

but his hostile attitude towards the coach at the table, indicating his own level of agitation, reveals a personality unfit for officiating, in my opinion.  much too invested.  casts additional doubt over all his questionable calls.

[Perry 1,078]

Tue ref did a bad job and was clearly biased in his officiating. Retired after that tournament as well

[Plasmodium 1,256]

I didnt see the whole match, but nothing biased in that clip.  I'm glad he expressed some outrage at that.

[Holtfan 35]

If all you saw was the "oil check" and nothing else about the match--either leading up to or post match conversations--, what would your opinion be?

The guy in blue was knuckles deep, and when we saw the official move into position to see it, he attempted to undo what was already done.  Kid deserved to be run out of the tournament. No place for that type of behavior. 

[1032004 492]

10 hours ago, Holtfan said:

If all you saw was the "oil check" and nothing else about the match--either leading up to or post match conversations--, what would your opinion be?

The guy in blue was knuckles deep, and when we saw the official move into position to see it, he attempted to undo what was already done.  Kid deserved to be run out of the tournament. No place for that type of behavior. 

As I had wrote in the thread on oil checks and I think the last one about this incident, I think it should be called unsportsmanlike.  But calling it a flagrant seems a bit much IMO.

[Holtfan 35]

4 hours ago, 1032004 said:

As I had wrote in the thread on oil checks and I think the last one about this incident, I think it should be called unsportsmanlike.  But calling it a flagrant seems a bit much IMO.

I don't disagree. My point is the guy was knuckle-deep--there is no denying that. Whatever penalty you wish to apply, so be it. But there is no doubt the infraction was committed, and it was committed purposely, IMO. 

[Plasmodium 1,256]

13 hours ago, 1032004 said:

As I had wrote in the thread on oil checks and I think the last one about this incident, I think it should be called unsportsmanlike.  But calling it a flagrant seems a bit much IMO.

Are you saying that you see an oil check and feel an  appropriate penalty is unsportsmanlike conduct?  

I feel flagrant misconduct doesnt even begin to address it.

[1032004 492]

34 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Are you saying that you see an oil check and feel an  appropriate penalty is unsportsmanlike conduct?  

I feel flagrant misconduct doesnt even begin to address it.

Considering much of the time it’s not called at all, yes I feel unsportsmanlike conduct is appropriate.

[dtry222 23]

On 4/15/2019 at 10:13 PM, TobusRex said:

I'm not so sure it was flagrant. The oil check definitely happened, but I don't think it was "intentional", I think the kid was just grabbing whatever he could get his hands on.

Not sure one can say it definitely happened. A lot of people don't seem to understand that a butt drag is good position here. People aren't just going there to "oil check". Going over the hip opens up rolls and puts one in danger. Scooting with the butt drag always one to run a leg down and stay in good position.

There's also no camera angle showing the position, and Soares (the official), is in position looking right at it as the butt drag starts and doesn't stop the action. Soares has made a history of controversial calls in Rhode Island and the large majority of the New England wrestling community felt this was a terrible call. There's no history of any cheap behavior from Brown and he has never been DQ'd in his life. The true benefactor of the DQ was a wrestler Soares coaches in RI who had never beaten Brown, who then made the New England final. 

This all happened months ago, so I am not sure why it's coming up again. All butt drags aren't oil checks folks, and just because someone goes to that region does not mean they're checking oil or purposefully doing so. There are people that have done that, but I think everyone thinks it happens way more than it actually does 

[Plasmodium 1,256]

The ref was certain that it happened. How was he certain?   He looked.

I give this ref a lot of credit.  Most refs are asleep at the wheel.  

[dtry222 23]

On 4/20/2019 at 9:56 AM, Plasmodium said:

The ref was certain that it happened. How was he certain?   He looked.

I give this ref a lot of credit.  Most refs are asleep at the wheel.  

He also clearly lost control of a match where he had a reason to be biased. He has been known to make very controversial calls in New England, and specifically RI. The large majority of New England wrestling’s community found the call to be ridiculous, and found his temperament from the start of the match to be out of line 

[Holtfan 35]

On 4/22/2019 at 7:19 AM, dtry222 said:

He also clearly lost control of a match where he had a reason to be biased. He has been known to make very controversial calls in New England, and specifically RI. The large majority of New England wrestling’s community found the call to be ridiculous, and found his temperament from the start of the match to be out of line 

As I asked before---if all you saw was from the 2:00 mark to 2:12, what would your thoughts be?  Not the action leading up to, nor the conversations following the infraction, but just those 12 seconds.  To me, he does it, and he does it on purpose. The reason I say this is it appears as soon as the wrestler notices the official looking at it, he moves his hand, and then feigns shock when it's called. 

My opinion: He should have been sited for practicing proctology without a license.  

[KingK0ng 167]

True, he did move his hand in a hurry.

[AHamilton 183]

He does move his hand, but look at his eyes... I'm not sure he can see the official well enough.  He may be too busy trying to secure a go-behind.

[stonerd7 50]

My thoughts on this were that I think this may look worse since the one kid is wearing fight shorts vs. a singlet.  The fluff from the shorts I think kind of hides or is deceiving to how deep he may have been.

[TripNSweep 367]

I went back and watched it very slowly.  Here's what I saw.

at 2:07 the referee is in full view of the alleged oil check. He is in perfect position to see it if it happened or not. At 2:08 the referee is still in the same position and the wrestler in red has stepped up to circle on his left leg. Still no indication anything is wrong. At 2:09 the wrestler in red has his butt up to circle or defend. At this angle it looks like it would be pretty much impossible to check the oil because of the way the Exeter wrestler's hand is angled/positioned. The referee is also no longer looking at it, but has changed his view by moving his head. It's subtle but there. 2:10, the referee is now fully in front of both wrestlers. The wrestler in red his butt has come down but is still defending. No indication from him anything improper has occurred. The referee is no longer in position to see what the Exeter wrestler's hand is doing. The hand position doesn't appear to have changed. 2:11, the wrestlers have changed position that the hand slips out a little more but the referee is now in full view as the hand is more on the right butt cheek than before.  Now he makes the misconduct call, despite being in full view of the hold the Exeter wrestler had for close to 3 seconds.  

 

My opinion is, he saw a reason to disqualify that kid and did it. There is no way he could have missed that call being in position for 3 seconds, without the wrestler in red indicating something was wrong, and then waiting almost another full 2 seconds to make that call, being out of position for the intervening seconds and not being able to clearly see anything.  Also the wrestler in red's shorts don't bunch up the way shorts like that would if they were being depressed inward like the ref claims the Exeter wrestler did.