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D3UC157

Aleksandr Karelin at NCAAs

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Flo was talking about JB’s international record 172-7 I believe they which led me to think who else would have really high numbers? First thought, Karelin, and it was a good one, because he was 887-2... Wow. 

 

Then naturally, since all all that matters are NCAAs I assumed he would have been 4 time undefeated etc etc. Had to do the due diligence and see who won during his college years 1986-1989 (He won olympic gold in 1988 at 20) Turns our that stretch is the same period that saw Haselrig go undefeated and win 3 championships.

 

To the question...

Who wins that match? How many titles would Karelin end up with?

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887-2 is insane!! Have to imagine with any type of folk style training that he would easily beat anyone in the NCAA. That being said, Greco and folk style are so different that if Hasselrig and Karelin wrestled folk style without Karelin training for it, I think Hasselrig wins. A large part of Karelin’s success was due to his unstoppable reverse lift which is completely useless in folk

Edited by Eagle26

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Karelin with training would most likely beat nearly everyone. One or three might take a match from him.

My dollar would go to Osamu Watanabe - 167-0 in international competition and never gave up a takedown.

A contemporary of Yojo Uetake who was an undefeated 3x champ at Oklahoma State. Myron Roderick said he was the best he had ever seen and "I never saw him challenged on the mat".

 

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Let's slow down a bit. 887-2 is a win-loss stat. It is super impressive, but it's not a measure of how great a wrestler is. It's a measure of his longevity. And his longevity is remarkable, as well as his utter dominance.

Karelin is, for sure, an iron-man of wrestling. He wrestled for a long time and dominated throughout his career in greco. He only lost a couple times along the way.

Now, Hasselrig dominated folkstyle for his (3) years. And as everybody knows, folkstyle and Greco are very different animals.

So is Karelin better because he had longevity and created better stats? No

Hasselrig takes any NCAA folkstyle match against Karelin every day, all day long.

 

Edited by GreatWhiteNorth
Edited after 'drag it' post. Thanks DI (and again)

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5 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Let's slow down a bit. 887-2 is a win-loss stat. It is super impressive, but it's not a measure of how great a wrestler is. It's a measure of his longevity. And his longevity is remarkable.

Karelin is, for sure, an iron-man of wrestling. He wrestled for a long time and dominated throughout his career in freestyle. He only lost a couple times along the way.

Now, Hasselrig dominated folkstyle for his 4 years. And as everybody knows, folkstyle and freestyle are very different animals.

So is Karelin better because he had longevity and created better stats? No

Hasselrig takes any NCAA folkstyle match against Karelin every day, all day long.

 

I would say that 887-2 is a not-irrelevant measure of how great a wrestler is (in Greco, I think, not freestyle) in addition to being an important measure of longevity.  

If I remember correctly, it's not like Karelin was just good for a long time; instead, people were in utter awe, even terror, of his might and skill, such that when he -- at the age of 33, with 3 Olympic gold medals already -- finally lost, it was if the impossible had happened.  (According to wikipedia, over the 33 World and Olympic matches between 1996-2000 before he lost to Gardner, he won every won by shutout, fall, or tech fall.) 

All that said, I have no idea if hypothetically, Karelin, having wrestled folkstyle in his younger years, could have beaten Hasselrig in college when he was 19-23 years old.  To me Greco is just so different than either folkstyle or freestyle that there aren't enough data points to make a confident comparison.  

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36 minutes ago, drag it said:

I would say that 887-2 is a not-irrelevant measure of how great a wrestler is (in Greco, I think, not freestyle) in addition to being an important measure of longevity.  

If I remember correctly, it's not like Karelin was just good for a long time; instead, people were in utter awe, even terror, of his might and skill, such that when he -- at the age of 33, with 3 Olympic gold medals already -- finally lost, it was if the impossible had happened.  (According to wikipedia, over the 33 World and Olympic matches between 1996-2000 before he lost to Gardner, he won every won by shutout, fall, or tech fall.) 

All that said, I have no idea if hypothetically, Karelin, having wrestled folkstyle in his younger years, could have beaten Hasselrig in college when he was 19-23 years old.  To me Greco is just so different than either folkstyle or freestyle that there aren't enough data points to make a confident comparison.  

Thanks for the assist - I corrected my post.

I agree 887-2 isn't irrelevant of how great a wrestler is. In this case, since the discussion is about a 4 year period, that stat needs to take a back seat to the more important facet - which is the sport that the wrestlers are competing in. 

Hypothetical matches are all kind of silly. But, all day, every day, I still have to take the undefeated folkstyle stud NCAA champ over the Greco world wonder for that 4 year period if they are wrestling folkstyle. (And, if they are wrestling Greco - then the other way around.)

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25 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Thanks for the assist - I corrected my post.

I agree 887-2 isn't irrelevant of how great a wrestler is. In this case, since the discussion is about a 4 year period, that stat needs to take a back seat to the more important facet - which is the sport that the wrestlers are competing in. 

Hypothetical matches are all kind of silly. But, all day, every day, I still have to take the undefeated folkstyle stud NCAA champ over the Greco world wonder for that 4 year period if they are wrestling folkstyle. (And, if they are wrestling Greco - then the other way around.)

I agree in principle with your folkstyle stud vs Greco wonder point -- you've got to start with a strong presumption in favor of the former.  Although I guess I'd offer that, if your basic point could ever be challenged, it might be by Karelin, for two reasons:

1.  This is heavyweight, so upper body skills might come into play in a folkstyle match more than they might at other weights.

2.  That was one very, very, very bad man (and I realize that that throw wouldn't be much use in folkstyle).

Image result for karelin pictures

Edited by drag it

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On 4/28/2019 at 12:49 AM, D3UC157 said:

Flo was talking about JB’s international record 172-7 I believe they which led me to think who else would have really high numbers? First thought, Karelin, and it was a good one, because he was 887-2... Wow. 

 

Then naturally, since all all that matters are NCAAs I assumed he would have been 4 time undefeated etc etc. Had to do the due diligence and see who won during his college years 1986-1989 (He won olympic gold in 1988 at 20) Turns our that stretch is the same period that saw Haselrig go undefeated and win 3 championships.

 

To the question...

Who wins that match? How many titles would Karelin end up with?

Haselrig. Not because he was a better wrestler than Karelin, but because Karelin wrestled Greco, not folk. I don't know any "pure" Greco wrestlers who set the world on fire in folk, although I do know of several that did quite well.

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14 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Let's slow down a bit. 887-2 is a win-loss stat. It is super impressive, but it's not a measure of how great a wrestler is. It's a measure of his longevity. And his longevity is remarkable, as well as his utter dominance.

Karelin is, for sure, an iron-man of wrestling. He wrestled for a long time and dominated throughout his career in greco. He only lost a couple times along the way.

Now, Hasselrig dominated folkstyle for his 4 years. And as everybody knows, folkstyle and Greco are very different animals.

So is Karelin better because he had longevity and created better stats? No

Hasselrig takes any NCAA folkstyle match against Karelin every day, all day long.

 

Haselrig dominated folkstyle for 3 years. He was 3rd in D2 his freshman season. 

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3 hours ago, Idaho said:

Name wrestlers who were greco medalists out of high school or in college who also won NCAA titles. 

Wait are there any Greco medalists out of high school who even wrestled in the NCAA?

Hell, are there any freestylers who medaled right out of high school who wrestled in the NCAA?

 

 

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5 minutes ago, wrestlingphish said:

Wait are there any Greco medalists out of high school who even wrestled in the NCAA?

Hell, are there any freestylers who medaled right out of high school who wrestled in the NCAA?

 

 

Or any who medaled while in college? My point being, I don't think there are many - if any - examples of phenom greco wrestlers who translated it to folkstyle success. Without having many or any examples, I think it's a stretch to say he would have won 4 NCAA titles. In fact I would say that most of the successful Greco wrestlers we have seen from the US have not been hugely successful in Folk. 

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13 hours ago, wrestlingphish said:

Wait are there any Greco medalists out of high school who even wrestled in the NCAA?

Hell, are there any freestylers who medaled right out of high school who wrestled in the NCAA?

 

 

Garret Lowney won an Olympic Bronze before his Freshman year at Minnesota.  It might have been after his RS year, but close enough.

He was a slightly undersized Heavy who was near the top of the NCAAs until injuries ended his folkstyle career.

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