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BobDole

2019/2020 NCAA Rule Proposals

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Re: Point changes-

Tweak the scoring for TD & escape's. Add a TD clock. Once someone has control and rides for 10 or 15 seconds, then an escape is worth 0 points. This way folks who try to build up a neutral lead still can the way they were to the tune of a 10-4 lead after one, but it will reward folks who legitimately try to ride every time.

Additionally I love the 4 point nearfall. Leave it.

Riding time? I think there should be a point or points for every minute accrued. Possibly even 2 points at 2 minutes and 3 points at three minutes, etc. If you're going to allow yourself to be ridden like a broken horse, then you should be punished for it. IE, minute is 1 point added, 2 makes it 3 total points added, 3 makes it 6 total points added, etc.

Additional riding time: Add the points as you go. Don't make it so someone can negate riding time. Both wrestlers have a riding time clock and can earn points for it separately.

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If riding time were to stay, which it should, it needs to be done correctly. Refs should need to see an active attempt at turns. If you're riding just to ride then you need to get for stalling. The bottom guy can't do anything if the top guy (like a Lizak, I know he turned guys but just his top ability) is an elite rider and just rides. If the top guy is just riding to ride call stalling. Stalling as a whole this past season was called and not called in some bad ways and needs to be worked on

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Ragu, 

In regards to your view on riding, this allows the bottom guy to just sit there, and wait for the top guy to get called for stalling. College kids are strong enough where most of them can sit there long enough, especially if they know they aren't in danger. Points or the lack thereof are not always a perfect result of how hard a guy on top is working. 

For your points discussion, you have mentioned several times a certain amount of points shows domination, but you think a three point takedown makes a tech fall easier... If there is just take downs and no near fall, you can get a tech fall in 15 takedowns with it worth two points. If TDs are 3 points it takes 8, the same number if you take away the escape point and keep the TD at 2 points. If a guy can take you down 8 times in a row, he has earned the tech fall. In freestyle, it only takes 5 straight take downs for a tech. What I like about the 3 pt takedowns and 1 point escape is that the point differential is the same but you reward the guy for finding a way to get back to neutral. 

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Just go to mat side weigh ins.  Eliminates all the other stuff like times and certifications that have been adjusted forever.  Step on the scale, show you made weight, then step on the mat and wrestle.  Use a big digital display so everyone can see it.   If you're cutting too much weight you won't be able to perform.  

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15 minutes ago, gopher_fan_90 said:

Ragu, 

In regards to your view on riding, this allows the bottom guy to just sit there, and wait for the top guy to get called for stalling. College kids are strong enough where most of them can sit there long enough, especially if they know they aren't in danger. Points or the lack thereof are not always a perfect result of how hard a guy on top is working. 

For your points discussion, you have mentioned several times a certain amount of points shows domination, but you think a three point takedown makes a tech fall easier... If there is just take downs and no near fall, you can get a tech fall in 15 takedowns with it worth two points. If TDs are 3 points it takes 8, the same number if you take away the escape point and keep the TD at 2 points. If a guy can take you down 8 times in a row, he has earned the tech fall. In freestyle, it only takes 5 straight take downs for a tech. What I like about the 3 pt takedowns and 1 point escape is that the point differential is the same but you reward the guy for finding a way to get back to neutral. 

Those are some very good points. As for the riding I think it's an easier said than done fix. If the bottom guy is laying flat he's clearly stalling but if he's showing that he's trying to get into a better position and out and the top guy is just trying to prevent that rather than working for backs/the fall then he is stalling (just like riding parallel is stalling). Easier said than done because stalling in college wrestling is like the catch rule in the NFL. We know, or we like to think we know, what stalling is but it's hard to put into words in a rulebook.

As for the TD situation I had never done that math and it is very interesting. I guess my only problem with the 3pt TD would be the prospect of a feet to back being 7pts. I believe that could cause a lot of problems, I mean that's one point from a major in one move set...

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Hate the idea that all MFF's should be treated as contested bouts that add losses to people's records. It's an unjust way to treat legitimate injuries (concussion, shoulder dislocations, etc.) that force someone out of a tournament. Most people's problem seems to be with ducking in duals and MFF's in conference tournaments. It feels of more value to weight conference placement more in the matrix in dealing with how to react to those scenarios. Guys sitting out of duals isn't going to be corrected by some rule.

I don't see why someone like Nolf should have been given 3 losses to sixth for defaulting with a real injury at the Big 10's. Bouts weren't contested, he was actually injured, and his seeding was still impacted (so was Kemerer's) via defaulting out of the tournament. We all also want the best possible national tournament, so trying to force people into wrestling injured, not just hurt, but injured, because the online wrestling community is mad, seems to create more problems than just weighing these placements more.

I just don't see the value in saying someone who say, gets a concussion in a semi final match of CKLV, must now take 2 real losses on the backside when they cannot actually, by rule, compete. Forcing everything into a rigid box when they aren't so black and white creates a system that may be slightly more simple, but more problematic than the current way we regard MFF's, because not all of these are ducks. Policing who is injured and who isn't injured isn't the easiest thing to do 

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Making Medical Forfeits count as losses will negatively affect more than just the wrestler who forfeits. The reason for the rule is to punish people who drop out of tournaments by lowering their seed at the NCAA championships due to the arcane formula they use. Seeding at the NCAA DI tournament is the only effect of this change. The unintended consequence is how it affects everyone else in the bracket. Do we really want a potential national finalist knocked into the consolation because the best guy sprained his ankle at the Southern Scuffle and then dropped out of the B1G tournament with a tweaked knee? The point of seeding is to separate the top guys in the weight. Anything that artificially affects that is a negative. 

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2 hours ago, Sparky said:

Just go to mat side weigh ins.  Eliminates all the other stuff like times and certifications that have been adjusted forever.  Step on the scale, show you made weight, then step on the mat and wrestle.  Use a big digital display so everyone can see it.   If you're cutting too much weight you won't be able to perform.  

The only thing worse than having kids cut weight is having them cut weight and then wrestle severely dehydrated. That makes an ugly aspect of our sport (weight cutting) outright dangerous. There will always be weight cutting as long as it’s one wrestler per weight per team. Kids are going to do what they have to do to make the lineup, even if they know they won’t perform as well. 

I’d like the idea of mat side weigh ins if every tournament was like the Open where there’s no team or lineup component. But as long as there are lineup considerations there will be weight cutting and mat side weigh ins would inevitably result in a lot of kids wrestling severely dehydrated. That would be a ticking time bomb for the sport.

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1 hour ago, IronChef said:

Making Medical Forfeits count as losses will negatively affect more than just the wrestler who forfeits. The reason for the rule is to punish people who drop out of tournaments by lowering their seed at the NCAA championships due to the arcane formula they use. Seeding at the NCAA DI tournament is the only effect of this change. The unintended consequence is how it affects everyone else in the bracket. Do we really want a potential national finalist knocked into the consolation because the best guy sprained his ankle at the Southern Scuffle and then dropped out of the B1G tournament with a tweaked knee? The point of seeding is to separate the top guys in the weight. Anything that artificially affects that is a negative. 

And this is part of my point too. Negatively impacting the balance of the bracket too greatly has negative consequences for both the fan, and especially the athlete. I've seen the idea floated that someone should only be able to be seeded as high as their conference placement, which also seems too rigid. Consider the possibility of a top 3-4 guy needing to default due to a concussion at something like the Big 10 Tournament and then forcing yourself to seed that person 9 or below due to a concussion. Would be silly.

Forcing everything into a rigid box can create more problems than the current perceived problem 

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1 hour ago, BobbyGribbs said:

for the love of all things Wrestling....get rid of Headgear, and have a neutral 3rd party review video challenges. Those are 2 definite easy wins

Why the strong feelings about headgear?

Of all the things to worry about, this seems pretty minor.

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25 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Why the strong feelings about headgear?

Of all the things to worry about, this seems pretty minor.

Valencia would have three titles now if not for headgear existing.

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7 hours ago, Sparky said:

Just go to mat side weigh ins.  Eliminates all the other stuff like times and certifications that have been adjusted forever.  Step on the scale, show you made weight, then step on the mat and wrestle.  Use a big digital display so everyone can see it.   If you're cutting too much weight you won't be able to perform.  

I have been saying this for years. 

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6 hours ago, IronChef said:

Making Medical Forfeits count as losses will negatively affect more than just the wrestler who forfeits. The reason for the rule is to punish people who drop out of tournaments by lowering their seed at the NCAA championships due to the arcane formula they use. Seeding at the NCAA DI tournament is the only effect of this change. The unintended consequence is how it affects everyone else in the bracket. Do we really want a potential national finalist knocked into the consolation because the best guy sprained his ankle at the Southern Scuffle and then dropped out of the B1G tournament with a tweaked knee? The point of seeding is to separate the top guys in the weight. Anything that artificially affects that is a negative. 

Don't these bracket situations already happen? See 2019 brackets

Seeding of the NCAA tourney is not the only effect - the conference tournaments are first and If they are a potential NCAA finalist they should be a potential conference champion - which if true - the medfft loss will not seem as important from the regular season

An easy solution is not having a medFFT count as a head to head loss to who they forfeited to but rather an overall record loss

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On 4/29/2019 at 3:38 PM, gowrestle said:

Valencia likely would not have beaten Hall if he had to weigh in 2 hours before the finals like he did for the dual. 

Zahid wrestled 79 kg against guys like Ringer with 2-hour weigh-ins and crushed, giving Dake two competitive matches. 2 hours, 1 hour, or 24 hours, Zahid would've won.

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10 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Zahid wrestled 79 kg against guys like Ringer with 2-hour weigh-ins and crushed, giving Dake two competitive matches. 2 hours, 1 hour, or 24 hours, Zahid would've won.

The speculation regarding the outcome being impacted by the time of the weigh in is theoretical. My main question is why would someone oppose a weigh in time that clearly will result in the wrestlers being close to the required weight?  No doubt that the current time for the weigh in has helped some gain an unfair advantage. Did Valencia have an advantage?  I think so but that is my opinion. Being involved in wrestling since 1967 has an athlete, coach, and administrator, I still believe cutting weight is not only stupid but also hurts our sport. (I know multiple former college AA’s that hate wrestling and haven’t been near a mat since their college days because of painful memories of sucking weight.)

Why are some afraid of requiring a later weigh in time for the finalists?

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16 hours ago, BobbyGribbs said:

for the love of all things Wrestling....get rid of Headgear, and have a neutral 3rd party review video challenges. Those are 2 definite easy wins

The medical committee will never approve it. Cauliflower ear looks stupid and is another thing that hurts wrestling. There are many reasons why high school programs are suffering. No doubt some parents equate wrestling with ear disfigurement and won’t  let their son’s wrestle. 

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I wonder if the MFF rule will lead to athletes competing while truly injured as the loss to change their conference/NCAA seeding, thus possibly leading to further injury. We want the wrestlers to be at peak for NCAA, or at the very least in the best condition they can be. I guess only time will tell whether this rule will have an impact overall. 

I am more concerned with the policy of ducking during dual meets in order to protect a record and get a better conference seed. No clear answer for this, I just don't like that it happens.

As for TDs being worth more.....I am against it. If you can score a TD, but you aren't good enough to hold the opponent to the mat, why should you benefit?  I am already tired of seeing guys who are great on the feet just run a TD drill like in practice.  Just my opinion.

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2 hours ago, gowrestle said:

The speculation regarding the outcome being impacted by the time of the weigh in is theoretical. My main question is why would someone oppose a weigh in time that clearly will result in the wrestlers being close to the required weight?  No doubt that the current time for the weigh in has helped some gain an unfair advantage. Did Valencia have an advantage?  I think so but that is my opinion. Being involved in wrestling since 1967 has an athlete, coach, and administrator, I still believe cutting weight is not only stupid but also hurts our sport. (I know multiple former college AA’s that hate wrestling and haven’t been near a mat since their college days because of painful memories of sucking weight.)

Why are some afraid of requiring a later weigh in time for the finalists?

I’m with you 100% on the sentiment but your conviction that Zahid would’ve lost is unfounded. As noted, he wrestled perhaps his best ever with very similar weigh-in rules last summer (2 hours versus 1 hour).

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I’m with you 100% on the sentiment but your conviction that Zahid would’ve lost is unfounded. As noted, he wrestled perhaps his best ever with very similar weigh-in rules last summer (2 hours versus 1 hour).

Fact:  VALENCIA IS A 2 TIME NATIONAL CHAMPION

 

 

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On 4/30/2019 at 12:34 PM, Ragu said:

As for the TD situation I had never done that math and it is very interesting. I guess my only problem with the 3pt TD would be the prospect of a feet to back being 7pts. I believe that could cause a lot of problems, I mean that's one point from a major in one move set...

That is the heart of every viewpoint involving how much points something should be worth; the opinion of how many points are needed for wrestling to be excited. IMO this is why the 4 pt near fall even became a thing. One thing I don't like about freestyle is how wrestler A can get a tight trap arm and the match be over in 15 seconds. At the end of the day, you won't be able to please everyone. I have always thought if you wait a little longer to award TDs you will have less of those 3 second escapes. If you ask me, leave the scoring as is, and in turn require wrestlers to invest time in all three positions. 

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